Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:
Warbler said:
Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:
Warbler said:
Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:
Warbler said:
Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:
darthrush said:
Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:
Warbler said:
For those that don’t like the term colorblind:
If I were the boss of a company looking to hire an accountant, what would be wrong in being colorblind in my choice?
Nothing, it would be great. But how exactly are you going to achieve that?
By not being racist? Deciding to analyze them based upon their merit?
And this is verified how?
what do you mean?
I said I’d bail out of this discussion, but I’ll reiterate my point just this one time…
The whole “I’m color-blind” thing is supposedly an answer to charges of racism. But it’s circular logic. Being “not racist” and being “color-blind” is the same thing. I can say that I’m not racist, or I can say that I’m color-blind, but why should someone who has been oppressed believe me – just because I say so? I might not even know, because a lot of such things are subconscious. Do you think the Google guy who wrote the manifesto is color-blind? I bet he thinks he is.
Also, if I’m the CEO of some giant company, I may have to delegate the hiring process to senior employees below me. Even if I honestly want the hiring process to be “color-blind”, how am I going to guarantee that happens? How can I verify that my employees acted in a color-blind way? By accepting that it’s true if they say so? There generally need to be processes in place to ensure it is systemic and verifiable. Otherwise nobody would have any reason to believe it - it’s just words. It also wouldn’t hold up in court.
Being color-blind is an awesome goal, but again, just claiming that it’s so, isn’t compelling at all.
So just what the heck would you suggest then?
That was my question to you! I didn’t claim to be the expert.
Well below you claim to be a more of an expert than I am.
I most certainly did not. Please tell me where I stated that. I have no idea if I am more expert than you. I was merely stating my background.
You are right, you didn’t claim to be more expert than I am, but you did claim to have some expertise. My apologies.
That said, I have served over the past year as my department’s equal opportunity representative in hiring of faculty. For this, I had to go through a lot of training. So I know SOME things about the subject - and, like most things, the more you know, the more you realize you don’t know.
You say there’s not much we can do except try the best we can – well that’s NOT TRUE at all. There is a LOT that can and is being done. And it starts by educating oneself on potential sources of hidden bias, and trying to avoid them. One simple example of something to be wary of, is trying to decide how well a candidate will “fit in”. That is pervasive in many hiring situations, and often leads to racial and gender bias, without the interviewers even realizing it.
So I shouldn’t worry about how well the applicant would fit in with the others?
I didn’t say that either. I said that it is something to be wary of. It is quite possible that years of hiring people who are perceived to “fit in” can lead to a homogenous group of people who only hire people like them. It’s something to actively watch for, not ignore.
possible I suppose.
Another is to replace the mindset of trying to ignore race/gender, with instead educating oneself about issues and situations that could arise in an interview.
other than the pregnant woman, what situations do you men?
Are the requirements/priorities for the position clearly identified beforehand?
I am looking for an account to handle the company’s books.
How are candidates going to be assessed - for instance, if a priority is “works well in a team”, it wouldn’t be wise to just go with a gut feeling. What if someone on the search committee is uncomfortable with what another search committee member said (happened once to us!) - is there any sort of understanding for how potential issues of bias can be raised and addressed within the committee?
I think the most important thing would be how good an accountant the person is. But yes, I see there can be complications.
Here’s an example of something we changed in our department: Hiring is a serious effort (pain-in-the-neck, actually), and we much prefer to hire people who are likely to stay. As a result, we had a habit of trying to second-guess which candidates we believed were likely to stay, and which were likely to leave after a few years. We learned that this can lead to bias, since it led to us preferring candidates with families (“grounded!”), candidates who would feel “at home” in the surrounding neighborhoods, etc.
hmmm, good point I suppose. In my area many different neighborhoods with different racial backdrops and we have public transportation. Hopefully the candidate would be able to find a place to live that they’d be happy with. Of course they may already be in the area and no moving is necessary.
Here’s another issue… where are you announcing the job opening? Some demographics are going to look in different resources than where we were listing. Furthermore, our failing to list a position in a certain periodical, can lead a potential candidate to believe we might not be welcoming to his/her type.
I would probably advertise in the local newspapers(like the Philadelpia Inquirer and the Courier Post) and with sites like Indeed.com and Monster. Maybe also tell the local unemployment office that we are looking for an accountant.
That is, actively trying to identify patterns ahead of time that can lead to bias, rather than trying to avoid the issue and assume that by being “blind”, it won’t happen. That leads to “winging it”… it’s better to be prepared. For a simple example, suppose a candidate shows up and she’s obviously eight months pregnant? What are you going to do? You should be prepared for that possibility, and many others.
So I shouldn’t be concerned at all that if I hire this person, she is going to need a leave of absence soon?
I didn’t say that either - but it does sound like you haven’t thought it out yet.
I guess not. I was just looking for the best accountant.
That was the point - be prepared, don’t avoid the issue(s). You’re looking for pat, simple answers where there aren’t any.
perhaps it is more complicated than I originally thought.
You’re also putting a lot of words in my mouth, but that’s not really relevant.
Sorry, that is not how I intended to come off. Again my apologies.
