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Evil Empire... — Page 5

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*lurks in the shadows, unseen and unheard. he makes no sound, emits no odour, he is... "not there"

*suddenly before anyone can react, he pounces on warbler, knocking him on his back and then pounces to bossk and gundark at the same time - for they thought they could outmanoeuver me by being more than one - and on to ricarleite and shimraa, finishing off with RRS.

*stands up whilst everyone is on the floor, feeling pounced. he grins widely and warmyl... that should do the trick...

how are you all? need a hand to get up? i got two...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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*Warbler stands up..........slowly* so thats pouncing eh? interesting........
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yup...

i should maybe start my own show... "Pounc'd"
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Originally posted by: Shimraa
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I know the US isn't guiltless but we have been on the right side of every war we've been involved in. We nevered conquered another country.


OMG I am sorry man but that is such and arrogant statement, America has been on the right side of every war. Lets name the last three wars America has been part of. The second golf war they went to war on lies. On faulty intelligence, the ends DOES NOT justify the means. Saddam had no weapons he said so many times he let arms inspectors in. (yes he was secretive but that is his right. he does not have to lie down for America) and we find out now that he didn’t have any. Afghanistan. This was a very good move, bush attacked the root of the problem after 911 I agreed with this war and I commended bush for it. Rather then attacking everything is sight after 911 bush thought it through then attacked. Then we go back to 1990 to the first golf war. Just curious do you know how that war was started. Ill tell you. Kuwait was drilling at an angle and taping oil on Iraq’s side of the boarder. In effect they were stealing Iraq’s oil. saddam found out, told them to stop, they wouldn’t and so saddam invaded. America thinking they were the best then went in and attacked Iraq, in effect America defeated the thieves. Now tell me was America on the "right" side in 2 of those last three wars. NO lets look at some of the other wars they were a part of. In Vietnam they tried to impose their capitalistic views on a country that was going to become communist is that right or wrong to impose your views on others. Then in Afghanistan they fueled supplies to the Arabs so that Afghanistan would not be taken over by the USSR. Then in WWII the Americans only entered the war only after they had been attacked even thou Britain and France and Canada was asking for their help b4 hand and even thought Hitler was committing the holocaust where was there urge to be the law enforcement of the world then. then lets go way back to the 19th century. America annexed New Mexico, Texas, and California from Mexico. They took over that land. (so don’t tell me the US has never taken over other countries directly. heaven knows how many countries they have taken over indirectly.) Back then they also annexed Washington stat, which was originally going to be part of Canada when Canada gained independence. And your telling me they aren’t gutless. America isn’t your right but they are nowhere near innocent either. Don’t get me wrong wither I like America I will probably live there one day and be a citizen. But I really do despise there foreign polices and really wish they would just sit in there own country and not worry about what is going on in the middle east the only reason 911 happened was because they would not stop influencing the middle east whether they were financing a rebel group or a government or actual there trying to oust leaders they didn’t like

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fighting is part of mans nature


Personally I feel that man is good. Go to any individual and ask them some basic questions about war and justice and they will all reply in the same way but when you get groups of people now that is where things get bugged up.

That is all for now cus I just saw this topic. Topic and I don’t want confer too much at one time other wise people start missing the points that are being brought up.



OK. Look Shimraa. In your worldview, your logic is spot-on. But that is appearanlty because you see the world through a moral relativist's perspective. We don't force democracy on others. Oppression is forced on others. Communism was forced on others. The Soviet Union started in a coup, not a people choosing communism.
Ok. maybe my statements were a bit.. er.. brash. I still believe we were on the right side of Vietnam and Korea. The problem is we weren't allowed to win at Vietnam. The government held the military back because of all the hippys chanting "give peace a chance." Now look at the countries into which we didn't stop the spread of Communism. Look at china. Look at North Korea. We were on the right side of Vietnam and Korea even though we ran away.

I'm not even going into the rebellious nature of humanity because that is a matter of theology and something that will cause people to go ballistic.

And please SEPARATE YOUR THOUGHTS NEXTIME. Do you know how hard it is to reply to something so hard to read?

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Originally posted by: RRS-1980
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
have y'all forgotten how it felt to see Three thousand innocent people blow away? Have you no sympathy for them?!

The symptoms of American amnesia are showing again... you seem to forget about the compassion displayed worldwide after the 9/11 massacre. It took a whole war to dimnish it.
None of us here ever presented even a hint of sympathy to Hussain, bin Laden or terror groups. Like I said before, they should be all neutralized long time ago. American intervention in Afghanistan to overthow the Taliban regime supporting terrorists was understandable - I don't see anybody arguing about that.
But we do wonder about the sudden change of priorities. TV suddenly stopped to talk about bin Laden and switched to Hussain, as if the first was no longer a problem. This, and other (alleged?) aspects (the profits of US gaining control of the oil fields in Middle East, personal vendetta of Bush family etc.) make us question the legitimacy of US intervention. We do not say that Saddam is OK. Do not mistake us with those freaks who wanted to be his live shields.

To be honest I was sort of frustrated by the sudden shift of focus myself. I didn't really become suspicious or anything. I just thought in his zeal to remove Hussein made Bush lose focus on bin Laden. And that is one of Bush's mistakes I mentioned earlier. And I am glad to know that you aren't completely insane. I guess the media likes to mention only the most absurd anti-war people.



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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
At the time bin Laden hadn't slaughtered 3000 innocent people and there was no way we could've know what would happen in 2001.

No way to guess? If you give a granade to a maniac you think he will be grateful and is not going to throw it into your house?
They weren't given weapons without a cause... they were meant to be a dangerous group, but their target supposed to be USSR, and not USA... but things got out of control and the "good" terrorist transformed into bad terrorists...
If you fight by the sword, you die by the sword.

True but at the time the Soviet Union was slaughtering anyone who spoke out against them and they intented to take that into Afghanistan. I think we did what we did for the right reason even if it cost us later. But if we had better intelligence before 9-11 we might have been able to prevent it. I'm not going to start bashing Clinton or anything. Just making a statement.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And why do you say the war on Terror is "propaganda?"

Because formerly USA was the state sponsoring the terror groups and Arab regimes and now you're playing saint.
Have you heard about Crusades? The ones aimed to liberate the Holy Land from Muslims? Everything in the name of Christianity and God? Do you know where the last Crusade ended? (I'm not talking about Indiana Jones here ) It destroyed Constantinople, the heart of Byzantum, the Eastern Christian church! Why? Because it was business! They were the competition and Western Roman Empire wanted none.
That is why I'm sceptical when people shout that some war is waged in the name of God, Nation, Freedom etc. Wars are usually about economical influences of a given state(s) and their immediate profits.

Of course. I know all about the Cruisades. I went to a private Christian school until two years ago and they made sure our generation doesn't repeat any of the mistakes of the past because of ignorance. And I think that the Crusaides are probably apart of why Muslims hate Christians so much. And I understand your skepticism but.. I think that the president should have to earn distrust. I mean it seams to me that most of you are against the war in Iraq because you don't trust Bush rather than distrusting Bush because we went to Iraq.

But my view is that history has shown that if you try and appease evil dictators then your wasting your time. Evil must be confronted and destroyed. Before WWII Churchill insisted that something be done about Hitler, but the nations of Europe then said "we are for peace" and then in 1939 Hitler invaded Poland. Same with Hussein. Appeasment doesn't work. We tried to avoid war for years but he violated nearly 20 UN resolutions (which of course, mean nothing to the UN) I think Bush Jr. understands that (he did go to Harvard, right?) and is now doing something.

One more thing before I get off of this soap box. The point has been raised that terrorism can't be defeated. Personally I think the "War on Terrorism" is a mis-nomer. I agree that terrorism is too... something.. to be eradicated by military force. The president clearly stated that the objective is to go after organized terror cells like Al quaed and governments that support them. Obviously we can't kill every Timothy McVeigh out there.

*Falls off soap-box and face-plants*






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OK. Look Shimraa. In your worldview, your logic is spot-on. But that is appearanlty because you see the world through a moral relativist's perspective. We don't force democracy on others. Oppression is forced on others. Communism was forced on others. The Soviet Union started in a coup, not a people choosing communism.
Ok. maybe my statements were a bit.. er.. brash. I still believe we were on the right side of Vietnam and Korea. The problem is we weren't allowed to win at Vietnam. The government held the military back because of all the hippys chanting "give peace a chance." Now look at the countries into which we didn't stop the spread of Communism. Look at china. Look at North Korea. We were on the right side of Vietnam and Korea even though we ran away.

I'm not even going into the rebellious nature of humanity because that is a matter of theology and something that will cause people to go ballistic.

And please SEPARATE YOUR THOUGHTS NEXTIME. Do you know how hard it is to reply to something so hard to read?


lol sorry about the thought part chaltab. its just the way i type sometimes.

whats wrong with china they are an emerging superpower, the only things holding them back is techonlogy and there poplulation. this may surprise you but the only country in the world that could hold its own against the US in a non- nuclear war is china. yes china would lose but the US would take exteme castulties. economically china is stable as well. some of the richest people in the world are chinese and there middle class is growing at a funominal rate.

as for korea. the US should have just stayed out and democrasy can be forced on people. look at history and france (thanks you motti for that link)on top of that in the 60s and 70s the US was enforceing capitalism more that it was democracy.

and in num the US held back because they didnt want the USSR to get involved directly, and in the end the pulled out because they lost too many soldiers, there soldierd were being slaughtered by the north veitnum gorillaz.
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chaltab...

the USA is forcing "democracy" onto the irqi people at this moment. they want to install a puppet governemt.

the usa the problem is also that the USA have single-handedly undermined the authority of the UN. the entire world, except USA, GB, Spain, Poland, Denmark and a few other maybe was against this war, including the UN, but the USA flipped the bird to the rest of the world and went ahead and bombed the shit out of iraq.

china is the only country in the world that can think of playing with the USA. their army is that of 50,000,000 people. they have over a billion in reserve. their economy is in the top five. do not underestimate china.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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And if China would disassociate the value of its yuan from the value of the U.S. dollar, their economy would become even more valuable because the value of their monetary unit would shoot through the roof. But they're afraid of the value of the Yuan becoming too out of control and then spiraling downward afterwards. Which is a legitimate fear. Right now they have a 1:1 equivalency between the Yuan and the Dollar making trade with the U.S. very easy and that equivalency is locked in place. As the value of the dollar goes up (actually, it's down lately), the Yuan follows accordingly. And the U.S. loves it. But China is holding itself back economically in the process.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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Points taken.

When I said "look at China" I was simply reffering to the fact that they are still Communist. And they are threating to invade Taiwan constantly.

And I guess I made a mistake about forcing democracy on people. The point I am trying to make is that a democracy is not oppressive. Oppressive democracy is oxymoronic and paradoxical.

The new Iraq government could be a monarch or aristocracy for all I care, as long as it isn't murdering/hindering it's people. But I still believe a democratic republic is the best way to run a country.

And I didn't know that Chinese money was equal to US money. I wonder how that happened. Anyway.

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the "communism" in China is limited... they are breaking more and more free from communism and - not necessarily towards democracy - going towards Free Market Economy.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
And I didn't know that Chinese money was equal to US money. I wonder how that happened. Anyway.

It's completely intentional. China's government declared that their money would be locked to the value of the U.S. Dollar and that's the way the world has to valuate their money as a result. Why they did it is to make trade with the U.S. easier. Or, in other words, to make exporting their products to the U.S. much easier since the whole world knows how bad our trade deficit is. We export a helluva lot less than we import. That's common knowledge. And we're China's #1 importer. So long as the value of the Chinese Yuan is equal to the U.S. Dollar, then the U.S. will be willing to import anything and everything. Benefits the Chinese economy in a big way.

The problem arises in that the U.S. Dollar is losing value compared to almost any other monetary unit in the world. This means that the Yuan is also losing value. Every economist in the world knows that with China's economy booming the way it has and the Chinese government loosening its stranglehold on their marketplace, that the very second that the government unlocks their Yuan from the U.S. Dollar, the value of it will skyrocket. So many people have been buying thousands (even millions) of dollars worth of Yuan in anticipation of what they feel is the inevitable decision to unlock the currency. Then the Yuan they bought will be worth a ton more than they paid for it making them overnight millionaires, so to speak. It's really an easy way to make money, and it's completely legal. However, it's all based on speculation. You never know for sure if the money you invest in will go up or down. But the Yuan going up is a given if they unlock. But that unlocking will alienate their number one importer... my homeland.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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OK. Well I guess I learned something today.


Man this computer is a piece of crap. I can't stand a five second delay while typing.

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See? I'm good for something.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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hehe dayv...

although the Chinese Yuan can't be exchanged here in the EU...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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it cant be exchanged int eh USA either nor in Canada for that matter... its an un-exchangeable monetary value...
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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did not know that one. why is it unexchangable
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coz its not a "recognized" currency.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Why is the yuan unrecognized? Currency exchanges don't recognize it? Well, there are still currency brokers...
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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just like roumanian money.. you cant exchange it, only to name one. most african currencies are not exchangeable.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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Just like Republic credits on Tattooine.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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LOL!
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
Qui-Gon Jinn (R.I.P.)
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LOL, cute comparison, Gundark
I saw the original theatrical release of the Old Trilogy on the big screen and I'm proud of it...
How did I accomplish that (considering my age) is my secret...
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so china is not recognized as having a currency. so how would you get yuan?