Idea: Integrating the two trilogies thread — Page 5

Yeah, it was just a silly thought.  I wanted to reiterate that I do like the Rule of Two with the Sith.  It's probably one of the best ideas to come out of the PT, I think.  Watching Vader talk about "rul[ing] the galaxy as father and son," and the Emperor saying, "Take your father's place at my side," it increases the tension and treachery between both characters.  I find the Siths' efforts at passing on their way of life while simultaneously backstabbing each other an interesting dichotomy.

darth_ender said:

^Yeah, your last thought is probably best.

But I like Sidious though. He can still be called Sidious, and still have Vader not call him that. There's no reason FOR him to call him that. He knows him as Palpatine.

Surely the whole problem with them trying to turn Luke though CONTRADICTS the rule of the two. Did they organise the whole thing with each other, knowing of an imminent betrayal? (Surely it would have been obvious?)

ben_danger said:

Surely the whole problem with them trying to turn Luke though CONTRADICTS the rule of the two. Did they organise the whole thing with each other, knowing of an imminent betrayal? (Surely it would have been obvious?)

That's why the Rule of Two is better left out. We can just assume the Sith betray each other because they're heartless bastards who seek power, not because they follow an ancient code.

I'd like to cut out the sith ALTOGETHER. It makes the choice to make a quick easy, but wrong, choice more relevant to the audience on a personal level.

That is not tension, that's a plothole. Tension would be Han and Leia having that drink with Vader in Cloud city and Lando attempting a joke as an icebreaker.

It might work as tension if we knew that Palpatine was the only one who knew of the rule, but that would have needed to have been mentioned previously, and then in the film itself as a reminder. Also lets remember, Vader gives NO suggestion that he is even contemplating kiling the Emperor in ROTJ. He even explicitly states that "I must obey my Master" (Although all these things might be changed etc etc)

In the days before the PT, Luke is instructed to kill his father because he is old and broken, and because the luke we knew from ESB and ANH would have really wanted to do that (hence how his character has developed).

I don't see a need for it to be an ancient code per se (though the thought of ancient precedent is interesting to me.  Rather, anyone who knows the Sith understand their nature and understands that they will turn on each other at the drop of a hat.  To me, that does create tension.  Vader cowers before his master, but knows that if he can gain Luke, the he can overthrow the Emperor while Vader controls him.  I agree with what timdiggerm said.  They both know what is in each other's hearts (though never made explicit in Ep III, in the novelization it is affirmed that Darth Plagus was indeed Palpatine's master that he murdered after obtaining his knowledge).  They know that one will successfully stab the other in the back, though they don't know who will succeed.  Meanwhile, they simultaneously are aware of the need to preserve Sith teachings, meaning they have to keep each other alive till they can find a suitable apprentice.  To me it is tension and it is interesting.

It's a good thing we're not doing a collaborative PT edit, because I have a feeling it would be extremely hard to come to any sort of story consensus :)

Then again, if timdiggerm's suggestion of creating resources for all fans to use were to be followed, perhaps more people could successfully finish their own edits.  Anyway, that's a topic for when we're done with ROTJ.

ben_danger said:

I'd like to cut out the sith ALTOGETHER. It makes the choice to make a quick easy, but wrong, choice more relevant to the audience on a personal level.

I like the concept of the Sith order though. I feel that should be left in. Also, removing it takes away so much from the story, as far as scenes and dialogue go.

I really like that idea. It makes sense, too. Vader's samurai mask is a tool of intimidation. It's only when he's severely damaged that he needs the practical applications of the suit, which can be put with any old space helmet.

jonathan7 said:

I did have a newbie question regarding why certain things aren't possible. So for an example I quickly whipped up a couple of pictures in Photoshop, I do apologie that they don't exactly look great.

So with one of my suggestions I asked if it would be possible to have Vader "in suit" on the one hand I can understand why it would be impossible to add a whole suit over Anakins robes. But would it not be possible to do something like this;

And this;

Can't tell if cool or ridiculous.

We'd love to see your edit.  Please put it up somewhere for all to enjoy, or at least describe it somewhere.  I know I'd be happy to see another take on the PT and how it turns out.

So after watching (actually skimming, since I'm too busy to really enjoy a full trilogy at the present) Q2's edits, I'm really impressed with how he integrated the two trilogies.  He did a very good job of having Anakin die, so we ultimately believe that Vader is the Emperor's next henchman if we were watching the trilogies in numerical order.

However, one thought (which I mentioned elsewhere) still occurs to me: Ben tells Luke, "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights.  He betrayed and murdered your father."

The only pupil we ever see prior to Ben's isolation is Anakin.  Any first time watcher of the trilogies, if we've attempted to integrate them as Q2 has, would still be confused.  "Well, I saw Anakin die, but Obi-Wan says his apprentice became Vader and killed Anakin."  We already see Obi-Wan is a liar of some sort, and part of the surprise is still spoiled or at least in the back of the viewer's mind.

I've got an idea how to fix it: remove a couple of the lines from ANH!  But then that doesn't really answer how Anakin died.  Ben's still a liar, since we know that he killed Anakin.  Plus we lose the impact and personal level of antagonism between Luke and Vader.  And furthermore, it creates a bit of an inconsistency with ESB: "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father." "He told me enough.  He told me you killed him."  And also there would be this little inconsistency with ROTJ where Luke says, "Obi-Wan.  Why didn't you tell me?  You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father," which is almost word-for-word what Ben told Luke in ANH.  So I'm not sure how to rectify that problem while preserving as much of the OT as possible.  Any other solutions to this problem?

It would be nice if we could see some of the Emperor's other agents somehow involved in the story, and we could speculate which of them was Vader.  That way, we'd at least have some room for speculation on who became Vader.  Perhaps we could have some inference that one of them was involved in finding Anakin.  I dunno, as I think about it, that doesn't work either.  Just typing as I think.

A couple of other thoughts have come to me recently, mostly in discussion with others:

Obi-Wan or Ben.  Ben says, "I haven't gone by the name of Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born," to Luke.  But even at the end of ROTS he's still going by Obi-Wan.  Not a huge problem, and perhaps this is strictly true, since maybe he changed his name immediately when Luke was born.  But still, the implication is that he changed it significantly before that.  I don't know how many times Obi-Wan is actually said during ROTS, but if it's only a few, is it possible to dub his name there?  Or perhaps would that just be a line better removed from ANH?

Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed Ben.  There are two ways I can think of fixing this: remove that little line from ESB, which shouldn't be too big a deal: "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master."  I think there's even enough of a pause for it to be a believable end of the sentence.  The other is something that Pagz did at FE.org.  I know his edit was seen as too rough, and some of his ideas weren't well-received, but he really had many interesting ideas, including how to handle this problem.  In his opening crawl he has this:

Jedi Knight Qui-Gon Jinn, overseeing young Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi's trials of knighthood, has been dispatched to liberate Alderaan from the tyranny of the Federation and to restore freedom to the peaceful system....

He turns Naboo into Alderaan, so don't let that distract you.  But he has Qui-Gon not serve as Obi-Wan's master, but rather as his preceptor or final trainer.  I think that serves as a reasonable explanation.

To read more about his edit, go here:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-The-Vader-Confidential-Edits-Episode-I-Completed-and-Available/topic/12302/

Yeah, if that's what you're going for, that's fine.  And I can see the interest of that point of view.  On the other hand, I sort of like the idea that the audience believes Ben is perfect, until all of the sudden Luke's and our worlds collapse with the revelation of all the lies at once.  But I think your interpretation may be the only possible way to see it, which isn't bad.  Still hoping for some alternate ideas, though :)

Oh, yeah I forgot about this thread. Maybe it would have been a more appropriate place for my rant in the ESB/ROTJ Wishlist thread. What was the rant? Oh, just that I don't think we should "preserve the twist" so to speak. I gave quite a bit of reasons there, but I'll try to summarize here:

1. I know the twist. You know the twist. We all know the twist. You aren't fooling me by killing Anakin in ROTS.

2. Yeah, but so what right? Well, know. The prequels were made to show us how Anakin became Vader. When I watch the prequels I want to see how Anakin became Vader.

3. Yeah but what about the people who don't know the twist? Who? Kidding. No, I think for people who honestly don't know the twist, showing them a version of the PT that "preserves the twist" before the OT is a mistake. WHY? Because the twist is diluted. HOW? Well, let's see

a. Obi-Wan lied! Oh wait, we already knew that.

b. Anakin turned to the dark side! Oh wait, we already knew that. A significant amount of the twist's shock comes from realizing that Luke's father (that great jedi that Luke is trying so hard to follow) became a sith. Really, without this, you're left with this: Anakin is still alive! And he's this guy in the black suit who showed up and has been in the past two episodes! Yeah, not too shocking.

4. You should really watch the OT first. Or at least make it 4-5-1-2-3-6. Contrary to what Lucas says, the PT was not made to be watched before the OT. The PT would have made very little money if no OT fans saw it. The PT was made with the mindset that "people have seen the OT." I realize this isn't much of a reason, because this is one of the things that people try to fix with fan edits, but I'm just saying I would never show someone the PT before the OT. Even if it was fan edited.

Now I'm going to ease back and say that I don't necessarily mind an edit that tries to "preserve the twist" (it would be interesting to watch [and, by the way, the way to do it is to remove Skywalker from Anakin's name. So we know he's Vader, but we just don't know he's Luke's father]), but if I want to watch a definitive ROTS/PT edit/s, I want to see how Anakin became Vader. Not even if I'm watching 4-5-6-1-2-3 or 4-5-1-2-3-6, but even if I'm watching chronological, I know the twist, so I want to see everything that happens. I don't want to miss out on seeing something just because a twist that I already know is being "preserved." 

My two cents.

I don't disagree with you at all.  I completely understand your rant.  However, I just find it a worthy endeavor to try to make the trilogies interchangeable.  Honestly, I'd enjoy watching the films pretending that I'd never seen the OT, and being surprised.  But I won't argue with you.  Your solution is simple and effective.  Not a bad thought.

In order to address part of your concerns (assuming we know Anakin is Luke's daddy, but not sure that he's Vader), what do you think of flashbacks?  Many people aren't interested, as it isn't Star Warsy in nature.  Perhaps there'd be a way to include it in ROTJ without being too distracting.  Likely during Ben's chat with Luke, some flashbacks could be squeezed in there to show Anakin with his final limb pulling himself up the ashen hill.  Maybe just before Luke removes Vader's mask, we see a flashback of Vader getting "put together" and his mask placed on his face...just thoughts.  What do you think?

Yeah, I too think it would be cool to see a version that "preserves the twist" and what not, I just don't see why many think it's the definitive way to edit the PT.

As for flashbacks, yeah I think that is a good idea. I actually suggested something like that in the ESB/ROTJ thread. Though I realize there are no flashbacks in any of the SW films, I think a flashback could actually fit in quite nicely, and still feel Star Warsy. And yeah, Ben's chat with Luke would be the best place to put it.

I've always liked the idea of flashbacks, and way I envisioned Star Wars, when I get around to it, was three movies, versus six.  The first focusing on Anakin, the second on Luke, and the third on Luke and Vader.  Each movie would be formed in a similar way to LOTR, as all three movies start with flashbacks.  This same principal, although, could be applied to each of the Star Wars movies, if you wanted to retain the six movie structure (or five if you hate TPM)

Well, I've always got fun ideas for these movies, but I don't have any capacity to fix them myself.  I hope someone will take some of these ideas and run with them, perhaps a full six-film approach to their edits, complete with preserved secrets and maybe even those flashbacks.  Who knows?

Thinking back to preserving the secret, if it could be shown that Anakin is still alive (crawling up the lava river bank), and that the Emperor sends Lord Vader to Mustafar to "take care" of Anakin (line lifted from Sidious talking to Neimoidians with slight alteration, if possible), then maybe there'd be some solution.  We would wonder who Lord Vader is and what Sidious means by this.  We'd think Vader would be killing Anakin, but in the end we'd learn that really Sidious was providing a suit for him.  I dunno, that sounds kind hokey.

Also, I'm agreeing very much with removing the name Skywalker, but also doing the Q2 thing where Anakin seems dead and we never see him become Vader (except maybe through later flashbacks).  Of course, new problems arise, such as the relationship with the Lars family and the surprisingly good ending for ROTS looking at the Tatooine sunset (that would probably have to be included in a flashback as well).  I don't know.  It's a fun problem to try to reason out.  Maybe in the end we'd have to settle for exactly as Q2 gave it to as and as timdiggerm explained: Kebobi is manipulative, but we don't know the extent until ESB.

Gosh, I'm just thinking in realtime here.  Maybe a pentalogy is the way to go to preserve the secret.  1-2, 4-5, and a 3/6 hybrid with lots of flashbacks.  Oh, what fun!

I love this thread because I think it shows a willingness to try to accept the whole trilogy.

I ll try to keep this short. Im 1-6 guy. If we exclude the "big surprise" I think you legitimately find that the Prequels work much better this way, and the OT is either the same or actually a little deeper. Its a long debate and discussion better suited for a different time and place.

I also think you aren't likely to find even new viewers that don't have some concept of "I am your Father" unless they are too young to really get it anyway.

I do, however, think you will find people who don't know little boy Anakin turns into Darth Vader. So you also have a surprise that none of us ever knew WAS a surprise. I like the idea that new viewers have heard of Darth Vader but not Anakin Skywalker and might not realize that he does in fact go bad. I mean seriously If you are watching 1-6 for the first time. You might still think Anakin will come through in the end, til you hear those words Darth Vader.

ok. on to this thread.

One thing for me that I love about the OT now that I have seen the PT is Padme. Shes not there and shes not mentioned, but she is so relevant for me now.

You hear Beru say "He has too much of his father in him" and Yoda says "Much like his father" Why, in the end, does Luke succeed where his Father failed? Because he also quite like his mother. To me this is one of the best things the prequels did to enhance the OT.

So Id like to have Padme added to the OT. I don't know how. Not as a Force Ghost which wouldn't make sense. I don't know if any voiceovers make sense either. I wish there was a way to make Old Ben mention her to Luke somehow. I don't know.

Maybe we could hear her say "Luke" like she did to him when he was born. It would be a cool thing for Luke and would also help with the issues of Leia having "Force memories" instead of actual memories.

Just thinking. Great thread!