ATTENTION: Dayv needs our help — Page 13

Yoda Is Your Father said:

I understand that you want the truth and feel entitled to it, but if Dayv chooses not to provide any further evidence then all you (or any of us) can do is believe whatever personal conclusion you arrive at.  

and we can come here and discuss the conclusions reached and why.

Yoda Is Your Father said:

Short of a straight up admission of guilt followed by an apology, I don't think you're going to get what you're looking for.

if he provides concrete evidence, we will know the truth.   If he fails to do so, after repeated attempts and knowing that he will not get donations,  it is probably for one reason: he lied.     It is as close to the truth as we can get, short of an admission.    

TV's Frink said:

Round and round we go.

Unless additional information comes to light, it seems like we're never really going to know for sure.  I don't know that there is a point in continuing this discussion.

if we do not continue this conversation, do you think we will get any more additional information?

Warbler said:

if we do not continue this conversation, do you think we will get any more additional information?

I don't think we'll get it either way.

TV's Frink said:

Warbler said:

if we do not continue this conversation, do you think we will get any more additional information?

I don't think we'll get it either way.

I disagree. 

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

Warbler said:

if we do not continue this conversation, do you think we will get any more additional information?

I don't think we'll get it either way.

I disagree. 

I disagree. :p

lets put it this way:  which way do you think it is more probable that we will get additional info,   by continuing this conversation and putting more pressure on Dayv, or by remaining silent and letting him off the hook?

No, when I said "I disagree," you were supposed to then say "I agree," because then we would be agreeing to disagree.

Joke fail.

This thread no longer serves the purpose Warb set it up for.

So until fresh information arrives I'm not going to post here.

I continue to offer any help I can to Dave.

Bingowings said:

This thread no longer serves the purpose Warb set it up for.

So until fresh information arrives I'm not going to post here.

whatever.

Bingowings said:

I continue to offer any help I can to Dave.

fine, do so at your own risk.

I find it interesting that despite the arguments made against me, no one has been able (even really tried) to refute the reasoning I used in post 273 or the reasoning used by C3PX in his email to me.     

Warbler said:

I find it interesting that despite the arguments made against me, no one has been able (even really tried) to refute the reasoning I used in post 273 or the reasoning used by C3PX in his email to me.     

Warb said:

1. Whose claim is easier to prove?  Dayv's claim that he has cancer or Shawn's claim that he does not?   Dayv's claim.  ... ... ...  Just because you don't have cancer does not mean there are medical records that exist that prove you don't have Cancer.   It is almost impossible for Shawn to prove his claim.  Therefor, if we are to clear this up either way, the proof needs to come from Dayv. 

This is a valid point about the difficulty of proving a negative. It follows that IF PROOF IS NEEDED, it would make sense for it to be a positive proof (even if Dayv is trying to decieve people, it's possible he has an undiagnosed cancer).

2.  Who should have the most desire to clear this up?  Dayv. ... ... ...  Yet he delayed and delayed and delayed.   Shawn's initial accusation came on 12/20/2010,  Jay's post that Dayv sent him records came on 01/06/2011.   That is a 17 day difference.  That seems very strange to me.  ... ... ...  I'd be professing like crazy that I was innocent and I would probably demand that the accuser be banned.   Dayv does not seem to be acting like I would in the same situation. 

Now we enter a realm of emotional value judgements. Dayv "should" want to clear this up. "This is what I'd do."

I don't know Dayv, or have clue what his headspace is, but clearly the dude is in a very bad place, but not defending oneself fervently enough does not equal a confession of guilt.

Finally, this is not a court of law.    If it were, the burden of proof would most definitely be on Shawn.   This is a case a of a forum member asking for money to help treat his cancer.   ... ... ... ...  Heck, even if Dayv did proof concretely, no one would be required to donate.   Everyone has the right to decide for themselves under what conditions they will donate. 

In a fraud case, I beleive the burden of proof would be on Dayv, for the reasons you said in #1. His records might be supoenaed. That being said:

• This is ultimately a case of a friend asking his friends for help. You're right that everyone has the right to decide for themselves how that transaction would go, but that applies to Dayv as well.
• Evidence has been provided. Is it convincing? I dunno. That's up to the person. You can dictate the conditions of your trust, but that too is up to Dayv if he's going to meet those conditions.

Warbler, I can tell you're angry, and given the situation I for one agree your anger and frustration is perfectly justified. You started this thread with only the best of intentions, and it's all kinda gone to hell. I think your requests are reasonable, but ultimately this is a take-it-or-leave-it situation. You can't pressure Dayv into doing what you want, this is just a message board. If other people are content with this situation, that's between them and their conciences.

TheBoost said:

Warbler said:

I find it interesting that despite the arguments made against me, no one has been able (even really tried) to refute the reasoning I used in post 273 or the reasoning used by C3PX in his email to me.     

 

Warb said:

1. Whose claim is easier to prove?  Dayv's claim that he has cancer or Shawn's claim that he does not?   Dayv's claim.  ... ... ...  Just because you don't have cancer does not mean there are medical records that exist that prove you don't have Cancer.   It is almost impossible for Shawn to prove his claim.  Therefor, if we are to clear this up either way, the proof needs to come from Dayv. 

This is a valid point about the difficulty of proving a negative. It follows that IF PROOF IS NEEDED, it would make sense for it to be a positive proof (even if Dayv is trying to decieve people, it's possible he has an undiagnosed cancer).

while it is possible the Dayv has an undiagnosed cancer, I don't think it has anything to do with this.   If is undiagnosed, I doubt he'd know for sure that he had cancer.   Also he claims he is being treated by doctors and has supposedly sent records,  therefore, he is claiming that it was diagnosed.  

However if he is lying now, and it turns out that he actually get cancer in the future and can concretely prove it, people might still be willing to help.

TheBoost said:

 

2.  Who should have the most desire to clear this up?  Dayv. ... ... ...  Yet he delayed and delayed and delayed.   Shawn's initial accusation came on 12/20/2010,  Jay's post that Dayv sent him records came on 01/06/2011.   That is a 17 day difference.  That seems very strange to me.  ... ... ...  I'd be professing like crazy that I was innocent and I would probably demand that the accuser be banned.   Dayv does not seem to be acting like I would in the same situation. 

Now we enter a realm of emotional value judgements. Dayv "should" want to clear this up. "This is what I'd do."

 

I don't know Dayv, or have clue what his headspace is, but clearly the dude is in a very bad place, but not defending oneself fervently enough does not equal a confession of guilt.

sorry but this is bs.  

if the man(assuming he is telling truth) doesn't get the needed donations, HE COULD DIE!

His LIFE could be on the line and his reputation here IS on the line.     Any sane man would want to clear this up.    I can't see one good logical rational reason to not want to have this cleared up.  

TheBoost said:

In a fraud case, I beleive the burden of proof would be on Dayv, for the reasons you said in #1. His records might be supoenaed.

no, in an actual court case, Dayv would be the defendant.   The burden of proof is always on the prosecutor.      But this forum is not a court.   If we find him guilty, here, he won't go to jail or pay a fine.   He might get banned and his rep for be diminished.    That is why do no need to go to the extreme of having evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

TheBoost said:

That being said:

• This is ultimately a case of a friend asking his friends for help. You're right that everyone has the right to decide for themselves how that transaction would go, but that applies to Dayv as well.
• Evidence has been provided. Is it convincing? I dunno. That's up to the person. You can dictate the conditions of your trust, but that too is up to Dayv if he's going to meet those conditions.

and it up to us to decide whether or not, him failing to meet those conditions means he's guilty.

TheBoost said:

Warbler, I can tell you're angry, and given the situation I for one agree your anger and frustration is perfectly justified. You started this thread with only the best of intentions, and it's all kinda gone to hell. I think your requests are reasonable, but ultimately this is a take-it-or-leave-it situation. You can't pressure Dayv into doing what you want, this is just a message board. If other people are content with this situation, that's between them and their conciences.

1. I shouldn't have to pressure Dayv at all.   His life and his rep here should be pressure enough

2. If other people want to believe and/or trust him that is fine.   But it is not fine to vilify me and treat me as though I'm the leader of lynch mob.   It is not fine to tell me to drop it and move on.   Let me decide if I want to drop it or not.   The only ones here that can tell me drop it is Jay and Moth3r, and they can only control what I do on this forum itself.   

You are right Boost, am angry.    I was friends with Dayv along time.   I clashed swords with Jay and left this forum because of him.     I still considered him a friend after he was accused of stealing from Boon.   I put him in second in command of my own forum when I had one.   I forgave him for banning me from it.  Then I came to his forum.   I claimed back then to be sick and I gave him money.   I believe I gave him money again to help him pay for Christmas presents for his kids.    Both times I was still am out of work.   Shawn and I had fights.  A polled was created it resulted in me getting banned for his forum.    He said the poll was honestly run,   I then find out that it was rigged.    He could have been honest about the situation.   I know he was more of a friend with Shawn and Shawn was paying him along to keep the website running.   I know there was no way Shawn was going to get banned.    But it would have been nice if Dayv had been more honest about what happened instead of rigging a poll and making a fool of me.   I know Shawn was his friend, but so was I.   If I had 2 friends and one was picking on and bullying the other,  I'd stand up to the one that was bullying.   I would let one friend do to the other what Shawn did to me.    Even after all that, I still forgave him, somewhat.    In November he said he had cancer and needed help.   Even after all that happened, I was willing to help.   I created the thread.   Even so, I felt guilty because I couldn't give money.   I didn't and still don't have any money give, because I'm broke.   After he said he had cancer,  I was very worried about him.  I was praying for him.   I had people in my church praying for him.   He asks me to ask Jay to send out a mass email.  Which I do no problem.  When he  said his car got stolen, I was very angry with God for letting so much happen to one person.    Then,  HIS BEST FRIEND came on here and said he suspected fraud because Dayv never told him about the cancer, never told his ex, and never posted on his own forum asking for donations.    Also the car thing turns out to be a lie It takes Dayv 16 days come up with some kind of evidence and it is not convincing, and because of all the delay and stubbornness in not getting concrete evidence, I get more a more suspicious.   Then I get vilified and accused of leading a lynch mob.    So yeah, I am angry.  

Gaffer Tape said: Not that you want to find the truth,

this is bs and not true.   if there is proof that Dayv is innocent,  you better believe I want to see.    I  become convinced that Dayv actually has cancer and needs our help,  you better believe when I can afford it, I will donate.   I've given him money in the past. 

Wow.  I know I said I wasn't going to post here anymore, but I feel I must in this case.

Warbler, I completely agree with you and honestly feel that this situation has been mishandled and misrepresented.  If I ran this joint, Dayv would have been banned and reported to authorities in his city if money was still owed.

Even though I have been, and still am, banned from this forum, as soon as I read about Dayv's so-called plight, I started a Facebook page to raise awareness and get donations coming in.  That's what I'm good at.  Spreading the word.  Then, I get two cryptic emails from Dayv.  One saying to take down the Facebook page, the other to tell me that he lost "two good friends" as a result of the Facebook page.

While that is complete bullshit, I complied with his wishes and took the page down.  Just in the short period it was up, there were TONS of hits and it already had a dozen Friends, with promises to donate money to him as soon as they were able.  All of the information was on the page, so all they had to do was donate.  I made it easy.  Again, that's what I try to do.  I wonder how many of those people, absolute strangers to Dayv, actually donated and/or got their money back.

The Internet offers powerful tools.  If someone is truly dying, getting this kind of help, for free, from people you don't/barely know, would be welcome.  Only if the person is doing something wrong would they not want the help.  That's what pisses me off.  I hate to say it, but there just can't be a gray area in this situation.  Black or white.  Proof or none.  Period.

I have had more than my share of medical problems in my 38 years, and if I needed to provide proof of diagnoses to save my ass from even the smallest situation, you can be damn sure I will do it.

Dayv has painted himself into a corner and he knows it.  Jay is trying to be diplomatic, but I think it's wrong.  I get banned for deleting a post, and Dayv does this shit with no consequence?  WTF??!!

Dayv, for one last time and I hope it sinks in: If you are truly sick, then PLEASE meet the requirements for proving it and LET US help you.  If you aren't and you lied because of some other situation like being without money or work, hey, just tell us and let's discuss it.  The first step to overcoming is admitting, Dayv.

fine,  I'll stop talking about it and wash my hands of this.    Donate  at your own risk.   But those that donate, know this:  I think you are probably donating to a liar.

deleted.

Just like this situation Jay, you have your version and I have mine.  The point is, if I were the one that did this, I would have been banned.

Now I am done with this thread for sure.

Oh, and Warbler deleted his post.  :P

for the record, my original post (post 320 of this thread) was done just to test whether the thread was still opened.  When I found out it was I edited my post.   It had nothing to do with the dispute between Jay and JediTray.  It definitely was not done to mock Jay's position on what Jeditray did.   I do not wish my actions to be used as ammo by JediTray.  

^Wait, what?