Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 717

Tyrphanax said:

You have guns, people use them for bad things, you severely restrict guns, people start using knives for bad, you severely restrict knives, people start using rocks or tire irons for bad… where does that end?

With the knives. Pretty obvious when you stop to think about it.

The sale of Knives are already heavily restricted in the UK and have been since like forever… in the real world. You work in a shop and you sell an age restricted item to somebody underage, you will probably lose your job and/or end up in court. The new problem is in part caused because underage people are able to bypass those laws intended to protect them and buy them online. This new law will close this legal loophole and make dangerous weapons very hard to access again.

oojason said:

if adults have to be slightly inconvenienced in proving their age to buy one in a shop, then so be it - the extra ten seconds to pull out their driving licence or other ID and show it to the shop assistant is quite a small price to pay, no?^

^ - which is something we’ve already been doing for years.

Agreed but to clarify for non UK people reading, when you say “have” to prove “their age to buy one in a shop” you don’t mean, “cannot buy without an ID” in the UK. Once you get to a certain age where the retailer can see you are clearly over the relevant age, they won’t waste their time, or your time asking for ID because of common sense.

TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Knife violence and gun violence are not comparable.

This. Until someone invents a gun that can shoot 30 knives a second, of course.

Isn’t that technically what a machine gun is in the first place?

oojason said:

Tyrphanax said:

moviefreakedmind said:

TM2YC said:

Tyrphanax said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/07/london-stabbings-300-extra-police-deployed-streets-tackle-spike/

Sounds like it’s all under control over there in the nanny state.

“You could be a mum or dad, big brother, big sister, a friend, a girlfriend, a boyfriend who knows somebody carrying a knife, leaving their home with a knife, involved in criminality - there’s no honour in keeping that a secret,” he said.

“You should try and prevent that person carrying a knife, leaving home with a knife.”

Insanity. “Just disarm yourselves, populace, and don’t worry: the government will keep you safe.”

Addendum:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/18/plans-to-make-delivery-of-knives-sold-online-to-private-addresses-illegal-knife-crime

Knives bought online will in future have to be collected in person, with retailers responsible for checking that all buyers are 18 or older. New powers are also proposed for the police to seize banned weapons such as zombie knives, knuckledusters and throwing stars if they are found in someone’s home, and to arrest those involved.

I can’t even wrap my head around the fact that we actually live in a world where things like this are going on. I carry a pocket knife every day because it’s useful in many situations at home or out and about or at work or really anywhere. It’s crazy to think that could be considered a criminal act in some places.

I can’t even wrap my head around the fact that you can’t even wrap your head around that fact.

I’m guessing that he’s saying that they’re obviously not dangerous enough to warrant this action since a butcher knife would be just as easy to get and just as deadly.

More or less, though as I understand it, it’s the kitchen knives that are the bigger issue in England than the pocket knives.

Directed more generally than specifically, a big part of why I’m being dramatically incredulous about it is that it appears that the relative inaccessibility of firearms in England hasn’t really solved their violence problems, and has just lead to more restrictions on less destructive things, with possibly more to come.

You have guns, people use them for bad things, you severely restrict guns, people start using knives for bad, you severely restrict knives, people start using rocks or tire irons for bad… where does that end? And let’s not get into the “slippery slope fallacy” thing because this slope looks fairly slippery to me: we’re talking about a minimum age of 18 to buy a knife, and only being able to buy knives through authorized dealers, so what do we look at next? Background checks and licensing just so you can chop an onion? I mean come on. The knife laws there are looking like the gun laws here, and the violence is apparently still going on, so it stands to reason that on this trajectory, ten, fifteen, twenty years down the road, we’ll be in the same boat. Is it less costly violence? Sure, granted, but if the rallying cry is “not one more,” and children are being stabbed to death, isn’t this still a solid F grade? At what point do we face the hard truth that restricting the implement isn’t rectifying the issue?

You can argue “well clearly it’s a problem, so why shouldn’t they do something about it? Who needs a knife anyway unless they need it in a professional capacity?” like people say about guns here now. Why shouldn’t MFM have a switchblade? Why shouldn’t I own a meat cleaver? What will people be saying that about next? And at what point do people stop sacrificing their rights to be treated like human beings on the alter of a supposed greater good that doesn’t really seem to be serving too many people. And you can say “Silly paranoid Tyr; they’re only repealing this one amendment, they’ll never touch the others,” but can we be sure of that? At what point do we stop and realize we’ve traded all of our rights for “protection”?

And yet they’re having to put hundreds more cops on the street to stop a wave of violent stabbings in London, or the School Resource Officer who is trained and tasked solely with protecting our children decides he’s better off staying outside.

I don’t know. It all feels like the point is being missed here. I admit that this is a bit dystopian and hopefully exaggerated, but it feels like a more and more real possibility as we see more and more articles that give me those creepy 1984 vibes. And I promise I’m not sitting naked in my bath tub with my tin foil hat on, clutching my scary black rifle waiting for the black helicopters to come to take me away, I’m just trying to spark some discussion. Let me know what you all think.

The Guardian article you linked to earlier refers to a series a measures to stop kids buying zombie knives, knuckledusters, throwing stars - including them being bought online by kids, and then used against others. An adult can still buy them online (and then picked up at a local store in person, with an age check) - or can still just pop down the shop and buy them.

People who need one for their work in a public setting (ie, tradesmen) will not be affected - other than the odd overzealous copper - as stated before. At home in the UK you can have a meat cleaver, kitchen knives, or other big knife etc - where does it say anyone can’t?

I’m not sure where you got the ‘authorised dealers’ thing from - you can pick an item up from any store with a online order facility these days. Any adult can still go into any store that sells a knife and buy one.

England is just one part of the UK mate - you’ll likely spark some more discussion with UK’ers on here if you acknowledge that - especially the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish 😉

We’ve had a few acid attacks in the UK of late - horrifying attacks leading to pain and disfigurement of people just going about their everyday lives - by frustrated and likely unbalanced kids and young adults. This has led to some restrictions on the sale of certain acids to the public (as well as companies being reminded to keep any acids or chemicals secure stored) - making it a little more difficult for joe public to get their hands on the stuff. Nanny state, eh? restricting the ‘right’ to buy acid and then walk down the street with it…

It may look a ‘slippery slope’ to you - but stopping kids buying cleavers, zombie knives and other big knives online doesn’t seem a bad idea to me, and if adults have to be slightly inconvenienced in proving their age to buy one in a shop, then so be it - the extra ten seconds to pull out their driving licence or other ID and show it to the shop assistant is quite a small price to pay, no?^

^ - which is something we’ve already been doing for years.

Thanks for your post, I always enjoy hearing other perspectives, and you’re definitely more familiar with the system in practice than I could be. You make it sound less heinous, but it still doesn’t sit quite right with me.

Also my apologies for the England vs. UK mistake, which is particularly embarrassing because I do actually know better.

TV’s Frink said:

Tyrphanax said:

TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Knife violence and gun violence are not comparable.

This. Until someone invents a gun that can shoot 30 knives a second, of course.

Isn’t that technically what a machine gun is in the first place?

Technically, no.

I guess the humor didn’t translate

TV’s Frink said:

Guess not, I’m still not sure I see the joke, but at least now I know there was an attempt at one.

I read it as a machine gun fires 30 rounds a second which is kind of like firing thirty knives a second because the bullets tear people apart. I don’t know, I was at a loss for the most part, but now knowing that it was a joke I’m actually more confused because I don’t really see the humor in it. I know I shouldn’t be talking because my attempts at humor are demented and they all suck, but I’m really not getting this one.

It was just that a machine gun fires projectiles quickly, so something that fired 30 knives a second would not be much different than a machine gun.

It wasn’t really meant to be a “bust a gut laughing” joke, just a humorous jab (so to speak). *shrug*

TV’s Frink said:

Tyrphanax said:

It was just that a machine gun fires projectiles quickly, so something that fired 30 knives a second would not be much different than a machine gun.

Well yes that’s why I said a gun that fires 30 knives a second, it was my whole point.

This has been confusing.

As opposed to a bullet that fires 30 guns a second?

Pretty soon the UK will be arresting people for playing Rock, Paper, Scissors (, Lizard, Spock).

…or maybe just confiscating their hands.

TV’s Frink said:

Tyrphanax said:

It was just that a machine gun fires projectiles quickly, so something that fired 30 knives a second would not be much different than a machine gun.

Well yes that’s why I said a gun that fires 30 knives a second, it was my whole point.

This has been confusing.

That was my whole point!

TM2YC said:

oojason said:

if adults have to be slightly inconvenienced in proving their age to buy one in a shop, then so be it - the extra ten seconds to pull out their driving licence or other ID and show it to the shop assistant is quite a small price to pay, no?^

^ - which is something we’ve already been doing for years.

Agreed but to clarify for non UK people reading, when you say “have” to prove “their age to buy one in a shop” you don’t mean, “cannot buy without an ID” in the UK. Once you get to a certain age where the retailer can see you are clearly over the relevant age, they won’t waste their time, or your time asking for ID because of common sense.

Sorry - after the shop assistants stopped asking for my ID several years ago (many, many years ago in fact - doh!) I just show it them anyway 😉 (fake ID with 10 15 years taken off the real age of course 😃)

Tyrphanax said:

oojason said:

Tyrphanax said:

moviefreakedmind said:

TM2YC said:

Tyrphanax said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/07/london-stabbings-300-extra-police-deployed-streets-tackle-spike/

Sounds like it’s all under control over there in the nanny state.

“You could be a mum or dad, big brother, big sister, a friend, a girlfriend, a boyfriend who knows somebody carrying a knife, leaving their home with a knife, involved in criminality - there’s no honour in keeping that a secret,” he said.

“You should try and prevent that person carrying a knife, leaving home with a knife.”

Insanity. “Just disarm yourselves, populace, and don’t worry: the government will keep you safe.”

Addendum:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/18/plans-to-make-delivery-of-knives-sold-online-to-private-addresses-illegal-knife-crime

Knives bought online will in future have to be collected in person, with retailers responsible for checking that all buyers are 18 or older. New powers are also proposed for the police to seize banned weapons such as zombie knives, knuckledusters and throwing stars if they are found in someone’s home, and to arrest those involved.

I can’t even wrap my head around the fact that we actually live in a world where things like this are going on. I carry a pocket knife every day because it’s useful in many situations at home or out and about or at work or really anywhere. It’s crazy to think that could be considered a criminal act in some places.

I can’t even wrap my head around the fact that you can’t even wrap your head around that fact.

I’m guessing that he’s saying that they’re obviously not dangerous enough to warrant this action since a butcher knife would be just as easy to get and just as deadly.

More or less, though as I understand it, it’s the kitchen knives that are the bigger issue in England than the pocket knives.

Directed more generally than specifically, a big part of why I’m being dramatically incredulous about it is that it appears that the relative inaccessibility of firearms in England hasn’t really solved their violence problems, and has just lead to more restrictions on less destructive things, with possibly more to come.

You have guns, people use them for bad things, you severely restrict guns, people start using knives for bad, you severely restrict knives, people start using rocks or tire irons for bad… where does that end? And let’s not get into the “slippery slope fallacy” thing because this slope looks fairly slippery to me: we’re talking about a minimum age of 18 to buy a knife, and only being able to buy knives through authorized dealers, so what do we look at next? Background checks and licensing just so you can chop an onion? I mean come on. The knife laws there are looking like the gun laws here, and the violence is apparently still going on, so it stands to reason that on this trajectory, ten, fifteen, twenty years down the road, we’ll be in the same boat. Is it less costly violence? Sure, granted, but if the rallying cry is “not one more,” and children are being stabbed to death, isn’t this still a solid F grade? At what point do we face the hard truth that restricting the implement isn’t rectifying the issue?

You can argue “well clearly it’s a problem, so why shouldn’t they do something about it? Who needs a knife anyway unless they need it in a professional capacity?” like people say about guns here now. Why shouldn’t MFM have a switchblade? Why shouldn’t I own a meat cleaver? What will people be saying that about next? And at what point do people stop sacrificing their rights to be treated like human beings on the alter of a supposed greater good that doesn’t really seem to be serving too many people. And you can say “Silly paranoid Tyr; they’re only repealing this one amendment, they’ll never touch the others,” but can we be sure of that? At what point do we stop and realize we’ve traded all of our rights for “protection”?

And yet they’re having to put hundreds more cops on the street to stop a wave of violent stabbings in London, or the School Resource Officer who is trained and tasked solely with protecting our children decides he’s better off staying outside.

I don’t know. It all feels like the point is being missed here. I admit that this is a bit dystopian and hopefully exaggerated, but it feels like a more and more real possibility as we see more and more articles that give me those creepy 1984 vibes. And I promise I’m not sitting naked in my bath tub with my tin foil hat on, clutching my scary black rifle waiting for the black helicopters to come to take me away, I’m just trying to spark some discussion. Let me know what you all think.

The Guardian article you linked to earlier refers to a series a measures to stop kids buying zombie knives, knuckledusters, throwing stars - including them being bought online by kids, and then used against others. An adult can still buy them online (and then picked up at a local store in person, with an age check) - or can still just pop down the shop and buy them.

People who need one for their work in a public setting (ie, tradesmen) will not be affected - other than the odd overzealous copper - as stated before. At home in the UK you can have a meat cleaver, kitchen knives, or other big knife etc - where does it say anyone can’t?

I’m not sure where you got the ‘authorised dealers’ thing from - you can pick an item up from any store with a online order facility these days. Any adult can still go into any store that sells a knife and buy one.

England is just one part of the UK mate - you’ll likely spark some more discussion with UK’ers on here if you acknowledge that - especially the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish 😉

We’ve had a few acid attacks in the UK of late - horrifying attacks leading to pain and disfigurement of people just going about their everyday lives - by frustrated and likely unbalanced kids and young adults. This has led to some restrictions on the sale of certain acids to the public (as well as companies being reminded to keep any acids or chemicals secure stored) - making it a little more difficult for joe public to get their hands on the stuff. Nanny state, eh? restricting the ‘right’ to buy acid and then walk down the street with it…

It may look a ‘slippery slope’ to you - but stopping kids buying cleavers, zombie knives and other big knives online doesn’t seem a bad idea to me, and if adults have to be slightly inconvenienced in proving their age to buy one in a shop, then so be it - the extra ten seconds to pull out their driving licence or other ID and show it to the shop assistant is quite a small price to pay, no?^

^ - which is something we’ve already been doing for years.

Thanks for your post, I always enjoy hearing other perspectives, and you’re definitely more familiar with the system in practice than I could be. You make it sound less heinous, but it still doesn’t sit quite right with me.

Also my apologies for the England vs. UK mistake, which is particularly embarrassing because I do actually know better.

No worries my Canadien friend, eh 😉 😃

I’ve actually been back home in the States for a bit now, haha