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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 243

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Ms. Thrawn said:

Even if we count the prequels for fun . . . the impression I got from the original six films is that the Jedi viewed “bring balance to the Force” as “make sure the light side wins”. Whether or not that qualifies as balance is up in the air, but it at least makes sense inside the story. Luke helps turn Vader back into Anakin, who then kills the Emperor.

Then TLJ throws a monkey wrench by implying that the Force tries to balance itself between light and dark. Snoke could’ve just been sharing his weird opinion, but it goes too far in explaining Rey’s aptitude.

As far as the Force having a will? That could very well be but a superstition among Jedi and to a lesser extent Sith (who like to preach about destiny). There are ghosts living in the spiritual realm who have minds of their own, I guess. Maybe “will of the Force” is the majority vote of a ghost committee. 😛

Your interpretation of the awakening is nice and sound. I agree. 😃

I’ve always thought that in the OT the balance was waaaay off in favour of the Jedi. Sith had only two for a long time but the Jedi were legion. Vader did bring balance in that there were no Sith or Jedi…if Vader was a creation of the force as mentioned then it would imply that it does balance itself.

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Creox said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

That is a pretty crass assumption. Why should you not want to discuss something you feel passionate about? Do you think it gives me discomfort? Why do I need to be swayed, and why should I desire others to see the light? Why can’t it just be about exchanging ideas? Should this forum just be an echo chamber for positive opinions?

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

There are whole sections in this forum devoted to stuff many people don’t like: the Special Editions, and the PT. These films and versions have existed for decades, and people are still discussing them, more often than not in a negative light. So, why should I not be discussing TLJ after just three months?

Remember: the greatest teacher failure is, and in my view TLJ is a failure, and there’s a lot to learn from this particular failure in terms of my own appreciation of the Star Wars universe and works of fiction in general.

I don’t think it’s crass at all. I get speaking your mind on a flick that bugs you, disappoints you…but to talk about it for months? That I don’t get. How many times do the same talking points have to be brought up before it gets old?

If you feel passionately about this film then I am truly puzzled because your posts are mostly quite critical.

I am more perplexed about your posts then angry…

He feels passionately about Star Wars. The Last Jedi is a part of Star Wars. It’s not just a movie he was disappointed in.

I have very mixed feelings about the PT as many here do but don’t spend a lot of time debating minutia about them to point out their flaws.

You don’t have to talk minutia to point out their flaws. You just have to mention anything about them.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Like their soundtrack.

Wait not that.

(Jedit: changed score to soundtrack because they even managed to mess up the score in post with editing for AOTC)

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Creox said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

That is a pretty crass assumption. Why should you not want to discuss something you feel passionate about? Do you think it gives me discomfort? Why do I need to be swayed, and why should I desire others to see the light? Why can’t it just be about exchanging ideas? Should this forum just be an echo chamber for positive opinions?

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

There are whole sections in this forum devoted to stuff many people don’t like: the Special Editions, and the PT. These films and versions have existed for decades, and people are still discussing them, more often than not in a negative light. So, why should I not be discussing TLJ after just three months?

Remember: the greatest teacher failure is, and in my view TLJ is a failure, and there’s a lot to learn from this particular failure in terms of my own appreciation of the Star Wars universe and works of fiction in general.

I don’t think it’s crass at all. I get speaking your mind on a flick that bugs you, disappoints you…but to talk about it for months? That I don’t get. How many times do the same talking points have to be brought up before it gets old?

If you feel passionately about this film then I am truly puzzled because your posts are mostly quite critical.

I am more perplexed about your posts then angry…

He feels passionately about Star Wars. The Last Jedi is a part of Star Wars. It’s not just a movie he was disappointed in.

As do I. I saw SW in a theater in '77 as a 12 year old boy and haven’t looked back since. I have very mixed feelings about the PT as many here do but don’t spend a lot of time debating minutia about them to point out their flaws.

When you are talking about debate among an singular group of people (mostly) as with this forum when does it become obvious that you’re just spinning your wheels and getting nowhere?

Maybe it’s just for the entertainment of debating??

I guess it’s really down to one’s personal motivation. I just love talking about Star Wars. Like you I saw SW as a kid in ‘77 and have watched the saga morph and grow, even as my own head-canon and biases were pushed and pulled by comics and prequels and now the new movies. I’m fascinated by what peoples’ particular ‘canon limits’ are and I just think that nerding out over all this stuff is fun.

My own head-canon has proven flexible too. I was 100% on board with the prequels as they emerged, but over time found myself rejecting them and settling into a more conservative ‘unaltered OT only’ position. But that doesn’t mean that I now hate the prequels or don’t like discussing them.

TLJ is fascinating because it has been so polarising. For some it is a poorly written mess and for others a work of total genius. So I just enjoy picking it apart and discussing it through the lens of my own own (and others’) certain points of view. Yes, there is an element of wheel spinning, but I think it’s less about simply hating on TLJ and more about using the polarisation a means to address the saga as a whole.

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I find it hard to continuously argue about things I don’t like about the SW Universe. I may go into a brief state of intense antipathy once I come to hate something, but before too long, that antipathy fades to apathy and then I just don’t care about the offending subject anymore. I guess I’m just too good at divorcing myself from official canon; it’s difficult to stay enraged at stories/characterization/worldbuilding I don’t consider “true”.

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Shopping Maul said:

Creox said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

Ms. Thrawn said:

I’m subscribed to a ton of reviewers and critics on YouTube whose opinions tend to vary from one another on a lot of things. But the only name I can think of off the top of my head who gave TLJ a glowing review would be Movie Bob. Doug Walker gave it a mostly positive, if I remember right?

Other than that, my subscription updates and recommendations have been inundated with negative reviews since the movie came out. YouTube has a kind of cynical culture going to it anyway, but I’ve never seen the hate bandwagon toward a work of fiction reach “Look What This Cuh-raaazy SJW Feminist Did On Campus” levels until now. I’m pretty sure there’s what amounts to a zombie horde of angry fans waiting to rip Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to shreds at the first opportunity, if the comments on a lot of those videos are any hint.

TLJ is just OK in my opinion, and I don’t rush to its defense. That said, if you want to call the backlash against it a little bit ridiculous, then you might have something there.

The informed and rational detractors of the film get washed up in the wave of hysteria you mention in your last sentence. That being said I find it puzzling why someone would spend so much time posting on a film they don’t like. I am talking to people like Dre who is obviously taking the time and feels passionately about his thoughts on the film. He makes good points but is unswayed so…why continue talking about it? IMO he feels (like many do in his position) that we will finally see the light and agree with him. Disney is not going to change their film.

That is a pretty crass assumption. Why should you not want to discuss something you feel passionate about? Do you think it gives me discomfort? Why do I need to be swayed, and why should I desire others to see the light? Why can’t it just be about exchanging ideas? Should this forum just be an echo chamber for positive opinions?

And yes, it makes more sense to me to continue to talk about a film you like then one you dislike simply because most people are not bothered to keep engaged in activities they dislike. If I don’t like a book I stop reading, If I don’t like a song on the radio I switch stations etc. But if I DO like that song I listen to it a lot and tell other people about it.

There are whole sections in this forum devoted to stuff many people don’t like: the Special Editions, and the PT. These films and versions have existed for decades, and people are still discussing them, more often than not in a negative light. So, why should I not be discussing TLJ after just three months?

Remember: the greatest teacher failure is, and in my view TLJ is a failure, and there’s a lot to learn from this particular failure in terms of my own appreciation of the Star Wars universe and works of fiction in general.

I don’t think it’s crass at all. I get speaking your mind on a flick that bugs you, disappoints you…but to talk about it for months? That I don’t get. How many times do the same talking points have to be brought up before it gets old?

If you feel passionately about this film then I am truly puzzled because your posts are mostly quite critical.

I am more perplexed about your posts then angry…

He feels passionately about Star Wars. The Last Jedi is a part of Star Wars. It’s not just a movie he was disappointed in.

As do I. I saw SW in a theater in '77 as a 12 year old boy and haven’t looked back since. I have very mixed feelings about the PT as many here do but don’t spend a lot of time debating minutia about them to point out their flaws.

When you are talking about debate among an singular group of people (mostly) as with this forum when does it become obvious that you’re just spinning your wheels and getting nowhere?

Maybe it’s just for the entertainment of debating??

I guess it’s really down to one’s personal motivation. I just love talking about Star Wars. Like you I saw SW as a kid in ‘77 and have watched the saga morph and grow, even as my own head-canon and biases were pushed and pulled by comics and prequels and now the new movies. I’m fascinated by what peoples’ particular ‘canon limits’ are and I just think that nerding out over all this stuff is fun.

My own head-canon has proven flexible too. I was 100% on board with the prequels as they emerged, but over time found myself rejecting them and settling into a more conservative ‘unaltered OT only’ position. But that doesn’t mean that I now hate the prequels or don’t like discussing them.

TLJ is fascinating because it has been so polarising. For some it is a poorly written mess and for others a work of total genius. So I just enjoy picking it apart and discussing it through the lens of my own own (and others’) certain points of view. Yes, there is an element of wheel spinning, but I think it’s less about simply hating on TLJ and more about using the polarisation a means to address the saga as a whole.

I certainly agree with your thoughts on this.

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Having rewatched TLJ, I’m fascinated by what a mixed experience it was. The film contains many great scenes, great acting and great action, but at the same time for each yin there’s a yang, that diminishes the overall enjoyment of the movie for me:

  • While most of the story is definitely entertaining, and there’s a sense of the unexpected throughout most of the film, it’s all ultimately in the service of establishing the FO as the new Empire, and the Resistance as the spark of a new Rebellion. So, while the journey is not unsatisfying, the destination is way too familiar, and anti-climatic. Had Rey and Kylo actually joined forces, the saga could have really broken some new ground, but alas that was not to be.

  • I enjoyed Luke’s arc much more this time round, and Mark Hamill’s performance together with the overall satisfying conclusion would have made for a good story, if not for the feeling I have, that it’s all fruit from the poisoness tree. What do I mean by this? Well, the entire premise of Luke’s arc is based on that one flashback in Ben Solo’s bedroom, where Luke very briefly contemplates killing his nephew. The problem here is, that RJ doesn’t provide sufficient motivation or make Luke seem sufficiently emotionally compromised for Luke’s actions to make sense. A moment of weakness just doesn’t cut it for me in the context of what came before. So, I think it’s a classic case of the story driving the characters, rather than the characters driving the story. The video I posted earlier perfectly encapsulates, why the basis of Luke’s arc is on very shaky ground:

“Brilliant or Senseless? Rian Johnson Explains The Last Jedi”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C95o0MRzBVs

  • I don’t for the life of me understand why Rey was made so overpowered. Apart from the fact that TLJ’s depiction of the Force obviously conflicts with previous installments, I can’t shake the feeling what a bland character the deux ex machine nature of Rey’s Force powers make her. I believe many of Rey’s scenes would have been so much more powerful and satisfying, if she had really struggled without Luke’s guidance, particulary in her fight with Snoke’s guards, which should obviously have much more experience than her. The bond between Kylo and Rey would have been so much stronger, if she had been injured in the fight, and Kylo had saved her from the guards. It would also have raised Kylo’s profile as an experienced Force user, and genuine threat for Rey in future installments. The movie simply depicts them as equals, and combined with Rey’s victory in TFA doesn’t really raise the stakes for any future confrontation between Rey and Kylo.

  • Why did RJ turn Hux into such a big joke? There was a nice rivalary dynamic in TFA, but that’s all been completely undermined by TLJ’s depiction of Hux as a baffoon. Considering that Kylo and Hux are now the only two faces of the FO, it doesn’t make the FO seem all that treatening.

So, overall TLJ is very much hit and miss for me. I can greatly enjoy the ST on its own terms, especially specific individual scenes, and performances, but as a story that is meant to both connect to the past, and move the story forward it seems a big missed opportunity for me.

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Dre, at last I’ve found something we can agree on, that Hux was cast too much as a buffoon and by reflection that made the FO seem rather toothless. TFA had established the FO as rather intimidating with its opening ‘firing squad’ scene, in the village attack - and hopefully the final movie in the trilogy will once again cast them as a force to be feared.

The idea of Rey being injured and being saved by Kylo in the fight with Snoke’s guards is interesting, but as it stands I do feel those guards were formidable and put up a good fight. I’m happy with the scene as it was, and in fact as an isolated sequence I’d rank it as amongst the very best across the whole SW Saga.

It seems you’ve also learned what thousands of others have, that TFA improves upon a rewatch. I feel like I was quite fortunate to see it twice in quick succession last December, because if I had only seen it once I feel my overall view of it might have been less kindly.

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Unlike many of you here TFA has the opposite effect on me. I’ve rewatched the movie quite a few times to see if it was just a bad first impression but now I just can’t bear to watch a movie I so thoroughly dislike.

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If I disliked a movie once I’d never give it more than one additional chance, it that even. Life is too short and there are too many movies to watch.

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Ms. Thrawn said:

Even if we count the prequels for fun . . . the impression I got from the original six films is that the Jedi viewed “bring balance to the Force” as “make sure the light side wins”. Whether or not that qualifies as balance is up in the air, but it at least makes sense inside the story. Luke helps turn Vader back into Anakin, who then kills the Emperor.

Then TLJ throws a monkey wrench by implying that the Force tries to balance itself between light and dark. Snoke could’ve just been sharing his weird opinion, but it goes too far in explaining Rey’s aptitude.

As far as the Force having a will? That could very well be but a superstition among Jedi and to a lesser extent Sith (who like to preach about destiny). There are ghosts living in the spiritual realm who have minds of their own, I guess. Maybe “will of the Force” is the majority vote of a ghost committee. 😛

Your interpretation of the awakening is nice and sound. I agree. 😃

Million times yes.

The blue elephant in the room.

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No, you’re reading it wrong.

The prequels ‘balance of the force’ wasn’t between light side and dark side - of course not, there were a multitude of jedi and only two sith (which the jedi didn’t even know about). That’s impossible. Total misinterpretation, and implies the Jedi were actively trying to fulfil a prophecy that would cull their numbers and grow the sith - WTF, of course not.

Balance in the PT was related to ‘steadiness’ - the word balance doesn’t just mean opposing weights on a scale, it also relates to remaining upright and not falling. The opposite of turmoil. THIS is the PT definition. It is the only definition that makes any sense given the numbers of jedi and the numbers of sith.

You’ve also missed that fact that the first of the Sequel trilogy is called The Force Awakens. There has been an awakening, have you felt it? There is no ‘monkey wrench’, it’s all there on screen and hardly rocket science. Rey’s aptitude is explained, the Force has awoken since the OT, the situation has changed. Keep up!

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https://youtu.be/9TAx-M1Eyz8

I disagree with many of the points here but this is a very entertaining review and I laughed a few times. Even though I liked it more than he did he was pretty fair I think and his points are at least respectable, and he doesn’t trash it and he even says it’s an overall decent movie. I mainly just watched it because the way this guy speaks cracks me up in his videos in general.

NSFW language!

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I’ve been hacked by Russians! I’ve had my cricket ball tampered with! Admins expel some diplomats - I’ve been misquoted!!

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I’m watching the 4K disc right now and the HDR is really stunning. I hope they don’t make us wait too long for UHD TFA and R1 releases.

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joefavs said:

I’m watching the 4K disc right now and the HDR is really stunning. I hope they don’t make us wait too long for UHD TFA and R1 releases.

i hate that i have no way to watch HDR, and i hate that this makes me want to spend money i have no money business spending. I guess i will just have a fun future experience of watching the HDR when i replace my tv in 4-10 years?

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OK guys, saw the movie a few more times. Still love it to bits but now I notice the movie does indeed have one flaw: when Luke becomes one with the Force his prosthetic hand vanishes along with him. I think it should have remained in the physical realm and dropped.

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fmalover said:

OK guys, saw the movie a few more times. Still love it to bits but now I notice the movie does indeed have one flaw: when Luke becomes one with the Force his prosthetic hand vanishes along with him. I think it should have remained in the physical realm and dropped.

Maybe he found a way to take it with him? He can drive Kylo slowly insane having a disembodied robot hand following him around. 😛

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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fmalover said:

OK guys, saw the movie a few more times. Still love it to bits but now I notice the movie does indeed have one flaw: when Luke becomes one with the Force his prosthetic hand vanishes along with him. I think it should have remained in the physical realm and dropped.

I mean… I guess. I don’t think we know enough about Star Wars’ prosthetic limb technology or the force to make a final judgement either way. I think if his hand did drop, it would’ve totally ruined the tone of the scene. It would come off as a joke, and that certainly wasn’t the time for jokes.

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Jeebus said:

I think if his hand did drop, it would’ve totally ruined the tone of the scene. It would come off as a joke, and that certainly wasn’t the time for jokes.

Johnson has commented on this and said pretty much exactly this. Mark may have as well.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Jeebus said:

I think if his hand did drop, it would’ve totally ruined the tone of the scene. It would come off as a joke, and that certainly wasn’t the time for jokes.

Johnson has commented on this and said pretty much exactly this. Mark may have as well.

Well yeah but Disney made 'em say it.