The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 240

corellian77 said:

NeverarGreat said:
The problem with that scene from a scientific perspective is that it’s strongly implied that a Hyperdrive is literally able to accelerate objects up to and past the speed of light, instead of opening a tunnel into another dimension.

DrDre said:
No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace.

I’ve only read the last few pages of the thread, so my apologies if this has been mentioned already, but on the topic of whether hyperspace involves simply travelling really quickly or entering another dimension, ANH would seem to establish that it’s the former, since one is still at risk of interacting with physical objects in the universe. As Han says, “Traveling through hyperspace ain’t like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that’d end your trip real quick, wouldn’t it?”

Actually it doesn’t necessarily establish that it’s the former, since Han’s remarks also apply, if you only consider the exit point of hyperspace travel in another dimension. Without precise calculations the exit point might be too close to or inside a star or supernova.

He says “fly through” not “come out in”

It’s a little hard to bring anything new to the discussion that hasn’t been said by a lot of other critics, but . . .

Before TLJ released, I assumed the script was in really good hands. Rian Johnson wrote Ozymandias for Breaking Bad, one of the highest rated and most praised episodes of a series in television history. People were excited that Star Wars was finally in professional hands, and we wanted to see what he could do, especially in the darker middle chapter of a trilogy.

But yikes. The story defies act structure . . . not in a Tarantino way, but in an amateurish way. There are long minutes that are superfluous and should’ve been cut. There are multiple climaxes. The rising and falling tension are more like a weird roller coaster than a satisfying build up and send off.

Kylo, Rey, and Snoke’s confrontation interspersed with the space battle should’ve been the climax, in my opinion. If you wanted to pit Luke against Kylo in a duel, all they really needed was for Luke to lift his X-Wing out of the water and fly in to join the struggle. But instead the two armies touch down on a salt planet and engage in a final showdown that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if you stop and think about it.

Instead of feeling excited and anxious for the good guys to win, I was feeling impatient and rather confused in those last parts.

Anyway. That’s my big picture look at the movie.

I don’t agree with most things you just said, but I hadn’t considered how cool it would have been to get to see Luke pilot an X-Wing again. Oh well.

Wouldn’t have to be HIS X-Wing, but it would be neat just to see him get to be an ace pilot again.

Ms. Thrawn said:

It’s a little hard to bring anything new to the discussion that hasn’t been said by a lot of other critics, but . . .

Before TLJ released, I assumed the script was in really good hands. Rian Johnson wrote Ozymandias for Breaking Bad, one of the highest rated and most praised episodes of a series in television history. People were excited that Star Wars was finally in professional hands, and we wanted to see what he could do, especially in the darker middle chapter of a trilogy.

But yikes. The story defies act structure . . . not in a Tarantino way, but in an amateurish way. There are long minutes that are superfluous and should’ve been cut. There are multiple climaxes. The rising and falling tension are more like a weird roller coaster than a satisfying build up and send off.

Kylo, Rey, and Snoke’s confrontation interspersed with the space battle should’ve been the climax, in my opinion. If you wanted to pit Luke against Kylo in a duel, all they really needed was for Luke to lift his X-Wing out of the water and fly in to join the struggle. But instead the two armies touch down on a salt planet and engage in a final showdown that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense if you stop and think about it.

Instead of feeling excited and anxious for the good guys to win, I was feeling impatient and rather confused in those last parts.

Anyway. That’s my big picture look at the movie.

It is the middle of the trilogy as per your last points. I didn’t expect an “end” in that respect for TLJ.

Regarding the hyperspace kamikaze: I didn’t have a problem with the physics of the stunt, and in isolation it’s undeniably a cool scene. I just don’t think it fits with overall SW worldbuilding. In a realm where hyperspace travel has existed for at least “a thousand generations” (Ben Kenobi, Ep4) - or more, if you count references in the EU - somebody, somewhere, at some point, should have had the lightbulb of weaponizing a hyperdrive. Not even necessarily a ramming maneuver, but perhaps, say, an “ISBM” - interstellar ballistic missle - that enters hyperspace, comes out wherever it’s programmed to, and devastates the target.

Even within the context of TLJ, if Holdo or some other character had voiced this idea, someone else could have briefly referenced why such weapons aren’t used (e.g., too much unavoidable or unpredictable collateral damage). That would have made it make sense. Ah, but Ruin Johnson wasn’t interested in well-thought-out storytelling.

In any case, I’m wondering what to do about this scene in my eventual reedit (TFA and TLJ will be combined). I think that, as it stands, it’s problematic in the larger SW context. I also don’t like the Holdo character; how much better if it had been Ackbar??? (Oh, that’s right - he’s male, so he can’t be smart or effective in the SW Disneyverse.) Currently I’m toying with either–

• cut it altogether
• make it something Luke does via long-distance use of the Force

Which of course raises the issue of Luke’s Force-projection. Oh, if only TLJ had included a scene like the capper in this HISHE vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ . Obviously HISHE is all about satire, yet a few of their ideas in this mock are quite the ass-kickers. Through satire they demonstrate that they “get” SW in a way RJ doesn’t.

In any case . . . I initially considered a reedit in which Luke’s pseudopresence on Crait is actually real, but now I’m leaning toward making the Force-projection itself “cooler” by expanding what he actually does with it.

DominicCobb said:
The problem was that they apparently decided Han an Leia’s stories were done already, which is silly, they easily could’ve given them more interesting things to do.

I agree with that point (not with your assertion that TLJ is “ten times better than ROTJ”). One of the things that’s always bugged me about ROTJ is that Han wasn’t flying his own friggin ship in the climactic battle. I’d rather have had either Han and Leia aboard the Falcon, and Lando and Chewie on Endor - or Han and Chewie in space / Leia and Lando on Endor.

This is also something I disliked in TFA: Rey is given all the fancy flying scenes with the Falcon. Highly annoying for a Han Solo fan.

Ms. Thrawn said:

Before TLJ released, I assumed the script was in really good hands. Rian Johnson wrote Ozymandias for Breaking Bad, one of the highest rated and most praised episodes of a series in television history.

No, he didn’t. He directed it. Moira Walley-Beckett wrote it. Rian Johnson didn’t write any of the three Breaking Bad episodes he directed. His only writing credits are his films (Brick, The Brothers Bloom, and Looper).

dahmage said:
. . . i would agree they are doing something a bit different. . . . It seems that it is the Jedi teaching that was the light vs dark, and Rey certainly hasn’t been steeped in that (yet).

In the EU’s New Jedi Order series (which I highly recommend and which should be adapted to film!!!), Jacen and Anakin Solo debate the nature of the Force: whether there are really “dark” and “light” sides, or if it’s just a neutral tool that someone can use for either good or evil purposes. It was an interesting subplot and it occurred to me that perhaps even within the canonical films, not every Jedi (or Sith) comprehended the nature of the Force or its uses. So I’m certainly open to different perspectives in the new films.

Sadly, you can only cover so much in a movie, and it would be a bit strange if they got philosophical at the expense of action.

Hey, Ben drops a few expository nuggets on Luke during Ep4. No reason another character couldn’t do the same thing on another occasion.

Creox said:
It is the middle of the trilogy as per your last points. I didn’t expect an “end” in that respect for TLJ.

True, but there’s no reason it couldn’t have been solid, internally consistent storytelling. TLJ is no TESB, that’s for dang sure.

Gothamknight said:

Creox said:
It is the middle of the trilogy as per your last points. I didn’t expect an “end” in that respect for TLJ.

True, but there’s no reason it couldn’t have been solid, internally consistent storytelling. TLJ is no TESB, that’s for dang sure.

I liked TLJ as much as TESB. There were many who disliked the latter when it first came out as well…but no social media.
For me at least I find TLJ necessary for the future of the franchise. Not necessarily better than but needed. I personally do not want the OT V2 through V10 for the next 20 years.

Thanks for responses, everyone.

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

SilverWook said:

Not sure where you’re getting that idea about Broom Boy™. I just presumed he has latent Force abilities that are just beginning to wake up and nobody around him has picked up on it yet. Just like that kid from Tatooine who was pretty good at Pod Racing. 😉
It’s not like anybody is actively looking for Force sensitive kids at this point, at least not yet.

I’m merely projecting my own biases. I like the original idea of the Force circa '77-'80 ie an energy field that can be tapped into by anyone with the discipline/openness to do so (I believe GL called it ‘space yoga’). Yes, there was the implication that Luke had somewhat inherited his Dad’s talent, but it was still ambiguous enough to a) not be a given and b) be a potential talent that still required serious training to bloom beyond good piloting instincts.

Anakin was of course an outgrowth of the genetic certainty presented in ROTJ via the shoehorned Leia revelation. The original ‘other’ was to be someone who had trained on the other side of the galaxy - ‘trained’ being the operative word. Leia’s sudden identity switch necessitated the idea of Skywalkers being a threat to the Emperor by birthright alone. So at this point Force abilities became more strictly genetic, and this led us down Midichlorian avenue.

Anakin was conceived by Midichlorians to fulfil a Jedi prophecy - all of which I find ridiculous, but he was still only displaying rudimentary prescience (in the form of dreams) and excellent reflexes. I just find levitating objects to be a little far-fetched, especially given Luke’s slow climb to levitation proficiency. Since TFA and TLJ seemed to be ducking the ‘chosen one’/Midichlorian thing and going back to the energy field, I thought they’d also preserve the discipline/space yoga side of the Force as well. Rey’s heaving boulders about the place and Broom Boy effortlessly summoning a broom conflict with the ideas presented in the OT in my opinion. I don’t think these powers should be so superhero-ish, given what we’ve seen before. They should be earned, not just appear like Marvel mutant abilities.

Yes, that is my view as well. I would like to add, that the OT and later the PT also made clear, that in developing these powers you inevitably will be tempted by the dark side, to choose the quick and easy path. That important Star Wars theme appears to have been jettisoned as well. There’s this weird scene, where Rey according to Luke didn’t even attempt to resist the dark side, but that element is never revisited, and appears to have no bearing on the rest of the plot. All the while Kylo is simply presented as a bad egg, who just needed a little prodding from his misguided master to become the monster he was meant to be, and Rey just instantly has these powers whenever she needs them, and all the while remains as good natured as ever.

Exactly! Even with the PT’s Midichlorian thing, the Force is still something one must train to use. Otherwise Sith Lords would be popping up everywhere! Anakin was rejected by the council in TPM, so clearly they didn’t see him potentially going off and becoming a Jedi/Sith on his own. If the Force really behaved the way these new movies are implying, then the council should’ve have grabbed Anakin on the very principal that he would undoubtedly self-train anyway.

I wish that element of Rey and her ease with the Dark Side had been explored. I actually thought she was using the Dark Side when she first beat Kylo in TFA. It would have been an interesting idea to have someone who is ‘good’ be steeped in ‘bad’ methodology due to the way she nurtured her talents on Jakku. But no, the only lesson here seems to be that Rey is perfect regardless.

SilverWook said:

This is the same council who poo pooed that the idea the Sith had returned, never mind what Qui-Gon had to report, took a army of clones without seriously questioning who actually commissioned it, and even when tipped off by Dooku, (who they insisted would never try to kill a senator) never suspected Palpatine of being a Sith lord until it was too late. Not the brightest bunch of bulbs in the chandelier. 😛

No argument there ha ha! But, in terms of training Jedi and vetting Midichlorian-rich children, they had at least been doing this for a long time without noticeable fallout. Otherwise, like I said, there would be scores of self-trained Dark Siders running around Force-choking people and generating enough of a psychic ‘ripple’ to bring the council to attention.

To use my previous X-Men analogy, if Charles Xavier didn’t take on mutant kids, they would then be at risk of a) having no control over their powers and destroying their own lives and b) being recruited into Magneto’s brotherhood. But with Midichlorian-kids it’s clear that, if left alone, they pose no threat. Otherwise the Jedi Order would snap them all up on principle. So it follows that training is the key in the SW universe, at least as I see it.

Frank your Majesty said:

You’re overthinking this. The point of Broom Boy is to show how the Force is for everyone and that you don’t need to be mentioned in a prophecy or part of a certain family to use it. And in order to establish this in a quick and subtle way, they showed him grabbing the broom. Showing his enhanced reflexes would require a way longer scene, putting too much emphasis on him. And simply mentioning his abilities in dialogue would be lazy and too on the nose.

I don’t agree with this for two reasons:

1. We’ve seen Rey almost instantly gaining Force powers for two films, a clear indication that the rules with regards to Force powers have changed radically.

2. The scene with broom boy might have worked better, if he had been shown trying a Force pull alone in his room after the scene where the children reenact Luke trolling the FO. He could have been shown concentrating, failing, concentrating again, and then be stunned, that it actually worked. That could have been a short scene. However, in TLJ the boy does it so casually, it’s second nature to him. This doesn’t jive with what’s been established in the pre-Disney era.

Frank your Majesty said:

Frankly, I don’t care about “The Star Wars Universe”. Star Wars had inconsistencies between movies since Empire. What I do care about is a watching a good movie. And in the context of TFA, the quick gain in Force powers serves to advance the plot, instead of wasting time with some sort of training montage.
The same applies to Broom Boy. At my first viewing, I even missed that he used the Force to get the broom. Having him reach out and try several times would have put much more amphasis on it. The point of that last scene is to show that the Force is something natural. So yes, maybe the ways of the Force changed for the ST, but I don’t mind how they changed.

Well I do care about the change, because gaining Force powers and facing moral choices was indelibly linked in the OT, and the saga as a whole before the Disney acquisition. In fact it was the underlying theme of what becoming Jedi represented: making the right choices, dealing with temptation, learning that with great power comes great responsibility. So, what you describe as changes to advance the plot in order not to waste time, I decribe as throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Consequently, for me Luke’s statement in TLJ, that he will not be the last Jedi, sounds extremely hollow, because becoming a Jedi used to mean a lot more than instantly gaining a bunch of super powers, and being a legend in the eyes of the galaxy.