The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 237

TV’s Frink said:

Lol.

Hey Frink, the Quote button is right next to the Report button. Make of that what you will.

TV’s Frink said:

TV’s Frink said:

Lol.

Hey Frink, the Quote button is right next to the Report button. Make of that what you will.

Did someone report themselves? 😉

Oh; when selecting your own post it’s edit. I know I’ve quoted posts I meant to edit.

flametitan said:

Oh; when selecting your own post it’s edit.

I was hoping no one would notice that. 😉

For what it’s worth, in the novelization, Poe sets a hyperspace entry point before Leia and Holdo retake command of the ship. That entry point is never changed, so when Holdo is alone on the ship waiting to die, she notices it - and because the ships have kept moving that whole time, the entry point is now behind the First Order fleet. That’s what gives her the idea to try it - because the ship will be accelerating to near lightspeed prior to hitting the hyperspace entry point.

So the “hyperspace ramming” actually occurs before the ship enters hyperspace, while the ship is accelerating to near-lightspeed in realspace.

It was basically her seeing where the entry point was plotted in relation to the position of the fleet, getting the idea, and going “Huh, wonder if this will work? Can’t hurt to try since I’m dead at this point anyway.”

I sort of assumed that the ship impacted before it entered hyperspace anyway.

NeverarGreat said:

trimboNZ said:

ChainsawAsh said:

For what it’s worth, in the novelization, Poe sets a hyperspace entry point before Leia and Holdo retake command of the ship. That entry point is never changed, so when Holdo is alone on the ship waiting to die, she notices it - and because the ships have kept moving that whole time, the entry point is now behind the First Order fleet. That’s what gives her the idea to try it - because the ship will be accelerating to near lightspeed prior to hitting the hyperspace entry point.

So the “hyperspace ramming” actually occurs before the ship enters hyperspace, while the ship is accelerating to near-lightspeed in realspace.

It was basically her seeing where the entry point was plotted in relation to the position of the fleet, getting the idea, and going “Huh, wonder if this will work? Can’t hurt to try since I’m dead at this point anyway.”

Huh, that’s a fairly good in-universe explanation. So it’s not the hyperspace travel itself that makes the collision but the “flicker of pseudomotion”, as Zahn puts it.

EDIT: That could also go some way towards addressing my biggest problem with that scene - why no one thought to do that maneuver before losing 90% of their fleet. They couldn’t until the entry point was sufficiently far away behind the First Order.

Even Zahn states with the ‘pseudomotion’ that the ship isn’t really accelerating to the speed of light, otherwise it would be, you know, actual motion.

Hyperspace is a way of getting around the infinite energy required to accelerate a ship to the speed of light. Requiring ships to accelerate to light speed to enter it defeats the purpose.

I guess it’s a case of RJ wanting to have his cake and eat it. In order for the collision to work, there has to be a real motion of mass, but the entire concept of hyperspace is to bypass the obvious physical limitations of real motion, hence all the theories of “folding” space and such, to explain how it would be possible to travel great distances in an instant, without having to invoke real motion in the form of unphysically fast speeds in real space. Hence, the logical conclusion, that hyperspace is not a form real motion, and thus cannot be used as a motion driven weapon. As such the hyperspace collision, as depicted in TLJ, while looking great visually, doesn’t make much logical sense even when looking at it from an in-universe perspective.

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

SilverWook said:

But we ships in motion when they enter and exit Hyperspace. Enough time to ram something before actually entering Hyperspace.

Yes, but that would imply the ship would hit the enemy at “normal” speed, which would defy the logic of it actually going through the Supremacy like butter with a speed much greater than cruise speed as depicted in the film.

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense, the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

SilverWook said:

Haven’t we been on this mobius strip before? 😛

Yeah, running in circles again. I guess you could view it as a sort of debating fitness program 😛.

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

Apparently not in real life physics bud, and therefore never in fantasy movies if I already dislike them.

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

Apparently not in real life physics bud, and therefore never in fantasy movies if I already dislike them.

yeah, this is why we have speed limits on US highways, 88 mph can cause, … issues.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace. The idea of achieving lightspeed or entering hyperspace by accelarating to an unphysically high speed in normal space is as preposterous to me as saying a man can fly by running really fast while flapping his arms.

There’s a big, big difference between a “normal speed” and “relativistic speeds” when you approach (but don’t exceed) lightspeed, though. I wouldn’t consider .95c to be anything close to a “normal speed,” and that’s still only 95% the speed of light. In my mind, you have to hit a relativistic speed like .95c to punch a hole through realspace into hyperspace, which allows you to travel faster than c (aka lightspeed).

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

This, especially when the visuals of going to hyperspace imply as much.

Also, people seem to think that this means TLJ is portraying hyperspeed is some kinda superpowerful attack method. But the way I saw it, the hyperspeed was just the fastest and most effective way to get the Raddus in contact with the Supremacy.

As long you don’t care about real life physics, which I 1000% don’t (and neither does Star Wars, nor has it ever, unless you’re referring to some EU hard sci-fi mumbo that has no place in this franchise), I’m honestly not sure why it’s an issue. I get if you’re super into science or whatever and you know that going to lightspeed can do all sorts of wacky stuff and that bothers you, but I don’t think it’s that hard to leave that at the door when you go to a fantasy film. As to this breaking established rules of the franchise, I still have yet to see anyone explain how this is the case, when they’ve literally explained next to nothing about how hyperspace works in the films.

But again, if you want to be bothered by something that shouldn’t reasonably be bothersome, go ahead.

I disagree. To me that’s a philosophy, where in fiction anything goes. So, it doesn’t matter, because fantasy doesn’t adhere to the real physics. However, imo to suspend disbelief fiction has to adhere to some set of rules, and be internally consistent. This is where I have a problem with TLJ on many fronts. In this instance, apart from the fact, that accelerating to lightspeed doesn’t make much physical sense,

By your own definition this shouldn’t be an issue. If Star Wars is fantasy, there should be no reason to not roll with the fact that ships need to accelerate into lightspeed, just like the Delorean (note that every time we see a ship go into lightspeed it looks like they are doing exactly this).

the hyperspace kamikaze proofs a hyperspace projectile is a much more powerful weapon than a torpedo, which begs the question why they are not widely used in the GFFA? The fact that any space battle in the GFFA would have been over in minutes with such weaponary, is bothersome to me, since the technology has been available for decades, and then I’ve not even mentioned the fact, that a kamikaze attack is pretty nonsensical in a universe with such advanced AI as the GFFA.

Like I said, I don’t think the hyperspace is the most important part of this equation. Colliding a ship the size of the Raddus would do a lot of damage no matter what, accelerating to hyperspeed was just the fastest and most efficient way to get it in contact with the Supremacy.

When you consider this, there’s not a single other time in these films where this would have been an effective strategy. Not only does the Raddus look like the biggest ship the Rebellion/Resistance has ever had, there was no point where completely wasting a capitol ship that size would have made any significant difference. The Death Star is pretty much the only time(s) they were trying to take down something big like the Supremacy, but the Death Stars were so big that ramming a ship through them at lightspeed wouldn’t do close to the damage shown done to the Supremacy, and I’d imagine the station would probably be back up and running in a week.

You don’t need a ship like the Raddus. An object the size of a football would have the same impact as detonating a nuclear bomb. An unmanned ship or torpedo the size of an X-wing would to tremendous damage equivalent to dropping a thousand nukes. I think the Death Star would be out of commission permanently, especially if such an attack would be directed at the disk.

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Makes sense to me that a ship would need to accelerate to the proverbial 88mph to punch a hole through realspace in order to enter hyperspace. *shrug*

But 88mph is a normal speed, and it’s completely evident from TLJ, that the Supremacy was hit at a much greater speed than normal speed, and the ship was accelerating to lightspeed, which is a contradiction in terms.

So the only two options are 88mph and lightspeed? There’s nothing in-between?

No, there’s normal speed driven by normal engines with normal physical limits, and there’s lightspeed for which you need a hyperdrive. The former is normal motion in real space, while lightspeed is achieved in another dimension called hyperspace. The idea of achieving lightspeed or entering hyperspace by accelarating to an unphysically high speed in normal space is as preposterous to me as saying a man can fly by running really fast while flapping his arms.

Is it as preposterous as sound in space, fire in space, laser bolts instead of laser beams, every planet in the galaxy having breathable air and Earth-like gravity, an asteroid field having densely packed asteroids, an asteroid having Earth-like gravity, a million other things I can’t think of off the top of my head, oh and also the ability to lift objects with your mind?

ChainsawAsh said:

There’s a big, big difference between a “normal speed” and “relativistic speeds” when you approach (but don’t exceed) lightspeed, though. I wouldn’t consider .95c to be anything close to a “normal speed,” and that’s still only 95% the speed of light. In my mind, you have to hit a relativistic speed like .95c to punch a hole through realspace into hyperspace, which allows you to travel faster than c (aka lightspeed).

No, when something speeds up, its mass increases compared with its mass at rest. As the speed of an object increases and starts to reach appreciable fractions of the speed of light, the portion of energy going into making the object more massive gets bigger and bigger. This explains why nothing can travel faster than light (using normal motion) – at or near light speed, any extra energy you put into an object does not make it move faster but just increases its mass.