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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 197

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Anchorhead said:

oojason said:

Collipso said:

https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-new-old-skywalker-253efda3809c

Quality article that - enjoyed reading it - nice one.

Agree. Really insightful take on the journey - Luke’s in-universe as well as actual. I’ve tried to make that same point many times here as well as an Indiana Jones board I lurked on many years ago. It’s very hard to explain to twenty-year-olds how different things will be 40 years from now.

When you have no framework for what four decades even feels like, you can’t possibly grasp how the journey changes you. So many things that seem of major importance to you at 20 will be long forgotten when you’re 60.

Forty years on from that summer long ago, I’m not even similar to who I was at 15. I would have been disappointed if all we got was ROTJ Luke with a beard. I may have done a scene or two a little differently, but I have no problem with Luke having changed since he was a farm boy.

It’s interesting that one of the things most polarizing about the film is also one of the things they handled so well. It says more about the audience than it does about the movie.

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you - I too would have been disappointed with a bearded ROTJ Luke - but I wonder if TLJ Luke really reflects 40 years’ worth of growth/change or has he reverted back to a pre-ROTJ state? Even Yoda steps in with some sanctimony about Luke’s “always looking to the horizon” (or something), but it was Luke’s romantic idealism that elevated him beyond the rigid ‘just kill the bad guys’ attitude of the old orthodoxy.

I’m really on the fence with all of this myself. As a fan of the (never-filmed) Kurtz version of ROTJ, I love the idea of a disillusioned Luke going into exile and struggling with the murky edges of Jedi ethics and the Force. But at the same time I’m not sure I can see Luke ever actually quitting entirely.

I’m also not certain we really want our heroes to be like normal people anyway. As a big fan of Conan the Barbarian, I recall reading somewhere that writer/director John Milius intended a sequel where old King Conan had lost his mojo and was sitting around getting fat and letting his fighting skills go to hell. Again, a disillusioned old Conan being somewhat broken and grizzled on his throne sounds cool. But slow and fat? Sure, normal people get slow and fat - but not Conan. It’s just not in his character, realistic or no.

I think the controversy around Luke is more about whether his actions are in character and true to the mythos, rather than whether people just can’t handle change. It’s a bit like having a movie about Spider-Man in his 60s where Peter Parker is all “screw responsibility - just give me power!”. It might be feasible that he go through such a jarring ethical conversion, but it doesn’t necessarily make for a good Spidey tale.

Again, not disagreeing so much as just thinking out loud…

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Shopping Maul said:
I’m really on the fence with all of this myself…I love the idea of a disillusioned Luke going into exile and struggling with the murky edges of Jedi ethics and the Force. But at the same time I’m not sure I can see Luke ever actually quitting entirely.

I’ll see your not disagreeing with you, and raise you an also not disagreeing with you. I’d like to think he wouldn’t either, but I’m fine with that direction if he did. Sometimes people become dissolutioned to the point of quitting. Plenty of actors, writers, artists, etc. It can happen, whether we want it or not.

I also think you’re right about some people just not wanting anything other than a continuation of ROTJ Luke and that’s caused yet another fissure in the fan base.

I’m also not certain we really want our heroes to be like normal people anyway.

That could be a 100-page discussion on its own. 😉

Forum Moderator
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Evil in Star Wars…

I was just reading this months Empire magazine and they did a ‘top 20 movie villains’ article which Darth Vader won (Kylo came 7th). In the article they describe Darth Vader as “pure evil”.

For me, Vader isn’t even close to pure evil. If anything he is ‘lawful evil’, he only ever kills with good reason and seems quite rational. At one point in the carbonite scene when Chewie assaults a Stormtrooper Vader even prevents Boba from shooting the unarmed Wookie.

Vader had The Emperor, who really appeared to take glee and pleasure from being evil, which made Vader appear less evil by contrast. Kylo had Snoke, which did the same. We’ve seen this in Game Of Thrones. Characters like the Hound and Jamie Lannister are not good people, but by contrast to Joffrey and Ramsey they are saints, and so the audience can back them.

Would you say, Kylo is already more evil than Vader? And without Snoke in the next movie will the story necessarily have to present Kylo as more of a pure evil character? He will have to be ‘the big bad’, and so the story might have to abandon the shades of grey and present Kylo as a more hate-worthy villain?

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Matt.F said:

Evil in Star Wars…

I was just reading this months Empire magazine and they did a ‘top 20 movie villains’ article which Darth Vader won (Kylo came 7th). In the article they describe Darth Vader as “pure evil”.

For me, Vader isn’t even close to pure evil. If anything he is ‘lawful evil’, he only ever kills with good reason and seems quite rational. At one point in the carbonite scene when Chewie assaults a Stormtrooper Vader even prevents Boba from shooting the unarmed Wookie.

Vader had The Emperor, who really appeared to take glee and pleasure from being evil, which made Vader appear less evil by contrast. Kylo had Snoke, which did the same. We’ve seen this in Game Of Thrones. Characters like the Hound and Jamie Lannister are not good people, but by contrast to Joffrey and Ramsey they are saints, and so the audience can back them.

Would you say, Kylo is already more evil than Vader? And without Snoke in the next movie will the story necessarily have to present Kylo as more of a pure evil character? He will have to be ‘the big bad’, and so the story might have to abandon the shades of grey and present Kylo as a more hate-worthy villain?

I don’t think I agree at all that Vader always killed “with good reason,” and I find him quite a bit more evil than Kylo.

I think it’s possible that they make Kylo more evil, but I don’t think it’s necessary. Obviously you want a very challenging antagonist, but that’s the thing, what’s important is that they’re an antagonist. Evilness is important to villainy, but villainy is not necessarily important to antagonism.

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Shopping Maul said:

https://medium.com/@goddammitstacey/star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-a-writing-problem-a19897a9c8b9

Underneath the JGL article is this even better (IMO) article on the writing of TLJ. This one pretty well sums up why the Holdo plot was a mess…

I agree that finding DJ by coincidence was weird, that’s her best point. I somewhat agree that characters are in a similar position at the end of the movie, but if you think about it they somehow managed to fit in a lot of character growth. Poe learned a lesson or two, Luke changed his mind about things and gave hope to the rebellion and the galaxy, Finn decided to be a part of the resistance and not just help Rey, Rey decided to be a hero and not just depend on Luke, Kylo decided to go his own way and not just follow Snoke…

I think Holdo not telling Poe the plan was reasonable based on his behavior (and when he finally learned the plan it leaked to the First Order, loose lips sink ships). Holdo having to stay behind and pilot the ship could be explained in many ways. Perhaps she had to manually calculate the trajectory of the light speed maneuver, perhaps the auto pilot can’t do advanced things like that, or perhaps it could but she would have to program it beforehand and by the time she would be done there wouldn’t be time to get out anyway. Maybe the movie could have given us a reason, but I wasn’t bothered by it.

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Sir Ridley said:

Shopping Maul said:

https://medium.com/@goddammitstacey/star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-a-writing-problem-a19897a9c8b9

Underneath the JGL article is this even better (IMO) article on the writing of TLJ. This one pretty well sums up why the Holdo plot was a mess…

I agree that finding DJ by coincidence was weird, that’s her best point.

Haven’t read the article, but is it? They weren’t looking for DJ, and even when DJ offered they said they were good and went their separate ways. They only go with DJ because he saved them and he’s a better option than none I guess. You could say they were lucky they actually did find someone who could get them into old man Snoke’s boudoir, but they’re equally unlucky for being in league with a guy who ultimately sells out the rest of the Resistance.

I think Holdo not telling Poe the plan was reasonable based on his behavior (and when he finally learned the plan it leaked to the First Order, loose lips sink ships).

I agree. The funny thing with this is that Holdo’s lecture about Poe being the last thing they need is literally in response to him asking what the plan is, so that’s, in my mind, a pretty explicit explanation as to why she didn’t tell him.

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DominicCobb said:

Sir Ridley said:

Shopping Maul said:

https://medium.com/@goddammitstacey/star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-a-writing-problem-a19897a9c8b9

Underneath the JGL article is this even better (IMO) article on the writing of TLJ. This one pretty well sums up why the Holdo plot was a mess…

I agree that finding DJ by coincidence was weird, that’s her best point.

Haven’t read the article, but is it? They weren’t looking for DJ, and even when DJ offered they said they were good and went their separate ways. They only go with DJ because he saved them and he’s a better option than none I guess. You could say they were lucky they actually did find someone who could get them into old man Snoke’s boudoir, but they’re equally unlucky for being in league with a guy who ultimately sells out the rest of the Resistance.

I guess the point is that it was very very unlikely to find someone with the needed skill set by chance, especially since Maz made it sound like the Master Code Breaker was the only one who could do it. The likely thing would be to end up in the same cell as some drunk little alien, yet they got a cellmate who could get them out, steal a ship and break codes. It’s a bit too convenient, but then again unlikely things can happen and it’s not exactly the first time unlikely things happen in Star Wars either. I guess it’s a bit like walking into some shady bar looking for a ride to Alderaan and finding some guy who later ends up saving the day on multiple occasions.

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Sir Ridley said:

DominicCobb said:

Sir Ridley said:

Shopping Maul said:

https://medium.com/@goddammitstacey/star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-a-writing-problem-a19897a9c8b9

Underneath the JGL article is this even better (IMO) article on the writing of TLJ. This one pretty well sums up why the Holdo plot was a mess…

I agree that finding DJ by coincidence was weird, that’s her best point.

Haven’t read the article, but is it? They weren’t looking for DJ, and even when DJ offered they said they were good and went their separate ways. They only go with DJ because he saved them and he’s a better option than none I guess. You could say they were lucky they actually did find someone who could get them into old man Snoke’s boudoir, but they’re equally unlucky for being in league with a guy who ultimately sells out the rest of the Resistance.

I guess the point is that it was very very unlikely to find someone with the needed skill set by chance, especially since Maz made it sound like the Master Code Breaker was the only one who could do it. The likely thing would be to end up in the same cell as some drunk little alien, yet they got a cellmate who could get them out, steal a ship and break codes. It’s a bit too convenient, but then again unlikely things can happen and it’s not exactly the first time unlikely things happen in Star Wars either.

Yeah, I don’t care too much about conveniences in SW, but in this case especially I don’t know. In general I don’t think you can really call it a convenience if it’s ultimately detrimental to the heroes.

Also, for the Maz recommendation, perhaps what she meant was “this is the only guy who can do it that I trust.”

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DominicCobb said:

Sir Ridley said:

DominicCobb said:

Sir Ridley said:

Shopping Maul said:

https://medium.com/@goddammitstacey/star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-a-writing-problem-a19897a9c8b9

Underneath the JGL article is this even better (IMO) article on the writing of TLJ. This one pretty well sums up why the Holdo plot was a mess…

I agree that finding DJ by coincidence was weird, that’s her best point.

Haven’t read the article, but is it? They weren’t looking for DJ, and even when DJ offered they said they were good and went their separate ways. They only go with DJ because he saved them and he’s a better option than none I guess. You could say they were lucky they actually did find someone who could get them into old man Snoke’s boudoir, but they’re equally unlucky for being in league with a guy who ultimately sells out the rest of the Resistance.

I guess the point is that it was very very unlikely to find someone with the needed skill set by chance, especially since Maz made it sound like the Master Code Breaker was the only one who could do it. The likely thing would be to end up in the same cell as some drunk little alien, yet they got a cellmate who could get them out, steal a ship and break codes. It’s a bit too convenient, but then again unlikely things can happen and it’s not exactly the first time unlikely things happen in Star Wars either.

Yeah, I don’t care too much about conveniences in SW, but in this case especially I don’t know. In general I don’t think you can really call it a convenience if it’s ultimately detrimental to the heroes.

Also, for the Maz recommendation, perhaps what she meant was “this is the only guy who can do it that I trust.”

I’d say it was convenient for the plot and not necessarily for the characters involved.

Either way I’m happy about your way of seeing the good sides of some of the problems some people have with this movie and I agree with basically all of the things you’ve written in this thread (that I’ve seen). It’s easier to enjoy something if you give it the benefit of the doubt and think about possible reasons for something happening rather than getting stuck on the reasons for it not to happen. The movie is what it is and complaining doesn’t make it better (unless you fan-edit it).

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Sir Ridley said:

I guess the point is that it was very very unlikely to find someone with the needed skill set by chance, especially since Maz made it sound like the Master Code Breaker was the only one who could do it.

Maz said that he was the only one she could trust to do it, not the only one that could do it. It was established that Maz herself could have done it, but she was unable, at the beginning of the transmission.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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adywan said:

Sir Ridley said:

I guess the point is that it was very very unlikely to find someone with the needed skill set by chance, especially since Maz made it sound like the Master Code Breaker was the only one who could do it.

Maz said that he was the only one she could trust to do it, not the only one that could do it. It was established that Maz herself could have done it, but she was unable, at the beginning of the transmission.

Good point. I guess it’s hard to say exactly how rare the code breaking skill is, based on what we see in the movie. In fact we see three very different characters who could have done it, so maybe it’s more common than one might think.

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In that /film interview, Johnson explained that the thinking for Holdo needing to stay on the ship was that an autopilot or droid would have some sort of tell that would be obvious enough for the First Order to pick up on. That makes enough sense for me; I totally buy that there would be a quantifiable difference between the way a ship piloted by an organic vs. a computer would fly.

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Think about the convieniece in the first movie. The driods just happen to get picked by Jawas that stop first at the Lars homestead. The one homestead with a connection to Kenobi. Any other would have done as far as R2 is concerned because Luke want part of his plan, but Luke is crutial to GL’s script. Star Wars has a lot of convenient plot points like that. Usually we don’t think about them.

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joefavs said:

In that /film interview, Johnson explained that the thinking for Holdo needing to stay on the ship was that an autopilot or droid would have some sort of tell that would be obvious enough for the First Order to pick up on. That makes enough sense for me; I totally buy that there would be a quantifiable difference between the way a ship piloted by an organic vs. a computer would fly.

This wasn’t a fast maneuverable ship like the Falcon and a straight flight path would seem the best option in terms of keeping distance and not using more fuel. Autopilot would seem normal in this situation and should have been what they were doing throughout (since they weren’t doing anything else). There wasn’t that much time left for the First Order to even notice anything funny. Holdo just stood there on the bridge until she decided to ram the First Order. Even if one does accept this slender reed of an excuse, I don’t think it explains why captains of other ships stayed behind when their ships were destroyed.

Bigger issues are that the First Order didn’t lightspeed ahead and were somehow unable to detect or view the smaller ships.

RJ seemed to be leaning heavily on a nautical model where two ships could be involved in an hours long chase, life rafts make a desperate run to a nearby island, unseen on the dark waves, and the captain goes down with the ship. I see the merit as a matter of inspiration and style but it requires some weird and not wholly believable explanations to make it work in the Star Wars universe.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Why didn’t the Death Star just jump in a position where it could immediately fire at Yavin 4, instead of circling the planet for half an hour?

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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Yeah, as has been pointed out before, people do love to pick on the flaws of the new movies while ignoring very similar flaws in the OT.

None of these flaws have every dampened my enjoyment of the movies. They’re movies, not real life.

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Frank your Majesty said:

Why didn’t the Death Star just jump in a position where it could immediately fire at Yavin 4, instead of circling the planet for half an hour?

I never thought of the Death Star having hyperspace capability. As we try to rationalize travel times in a sciencey way that probably isn’t very realistic. But such is the burden of trying to make space fantasy = science. But let’s follow that thread. I think it very likely that in calculating the hyperspace jump, they didn’t account for the location of the orbit. Some slight additional travel time might be expected (in the movie, half an hour) to adjust, but that’s no big deal. Any jump with something the size of the Death Star would presumably expend a tremendous amount of energy. Just makes sense to finish the last 30 minutes of the journey in normal space.

Getting back to TLJ situation: the chase could go on for another day or longer. I don’t recall if the FO somehow knew exactly how much fuel they had. We know that the ships in question, in the movie, absolutely do have hyperspace capability. That should answer how the two situations are different.

The blue elephant in the room.

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TV’s Frink said:

Yeah, as has been pointed out before, people do love to pick on the flaws of the new movies while ignoring very similar flaws in the OT.

None of these flaws have every dampened my enjoyment of the movies. They’re movies, not real life.

The questionable travel times in the OT never bothered me. Because, as you say, it’s not real life. Here, the issues are fairly obvious in-universe oddities. And those things do bug me.

The blue elephant in the room.

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I don’t think there’s any question that the Death Star has hyperspace capabilities.

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DominicCobb said:

I don’t think there’s any question that the Death Star has hyperspace capabilities.

It was not something shown or stated in ANH. I don’t think it was meant to be an issue either way. That was something truly not important to the movie.

Anyway, I’ve explained what I think are some pretty obvious differences in the two situations.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t think there’s any question that the Death Star has hyperspace capabilities.

It was not something shown or stated in ANH. I don’t think it was meant to be an issue either way. That was something truly not important to the movie.

Anyway, I’ve explained what I think are some pretty obvious differences in the two situations.

I don’t think you have.

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t think there’s any question that the Death Star has hyperspace capabilities.

I do. And it plays into my version of the events better if it doesn’t have the same hyperspace capabilities as the other ships we see.
I don’t think it’s important to the films either way though.

So but it does have some hyperspace capabilities then?

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DominicCobb said:

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t think there’s any question that the Death Star has hyperspace capabilities.

I do. And it plays into my version of the events better if it doesn’t have the same hyperspace capabilities as the other ships we see.
I don’t think it’s important to the films either way though.

So but it does have some hyperspace capabilities then?

Honesty time- I don’t know how space travel works at all and don’t have much interest in it. I don’t know how far away the DS was from Yavin and have no interest in SW galaxy maps.
But, in my headcanon, the Rebellion had enough time to study the plans and find the flaw, plan an attack strategy, Luke had some time in an X-Wing simulator and the DS was unable to pop up on the side of Yavin to shoot the moon and instead had to slowly maneuver into place. I say there was a few days to a week between Leia & Co. arriving and the DS showing up. So it doesn’t seem to work the way other ships do.
But, again, I don’t know much about space travel and maybe traveling through hyperspace isn’t a fast as it seems in other instances.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

I don’t think there’s any question that the Death Star has hyperspace capabilities.

I do. And it plays into my version of the events better if it doesn’t have the same hyperspace capabilities as the other ships we see.
I don’t think it’s important to the films either way though.

So but it does have some hyperspace capabilities then?

Honesty time- I don’t know how space travel works at all and don’t have much interest in it. I don’t know how far away the DS was from Yavin and have no interest in SW galaxy maps.
But, in my headcanon, the Rebellion had enough time to study the plans and find the flaw, plan an attack strategy, Luke had some time in an X-Wing simulator and the DS was unable to pop up on the side of Yavin to shoot the moon and instead had to slowly maneuver into place. I say there was a few days to a week between Leia & Co. arriving and the DS showing up. So it doesn’t seem to work the way other ships do.
But, again, I don’t know much about space travel and maybe traveling through hyperspace isn’t a fast as it seems in other instances.

Personally I don’t care either, but I imagine if it didn’t have hyperspace it would’ve taken a looong time, more than a week (a number I’m not sure I agree with, but again, doesn’t matter).