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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 194

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ray_afraid said:

Frank your Majesty said:

most of a Plinkett review is. Nitpicking.

Except it’s not at all.
Sure, he picks some nits, and even points these out, but most of the review is solid analysis.

I’d say most of the review consists of politically incorrect jokes, but when he analyzes it’s pretty accurate.

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 (Edited)

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that he does point out the real problems of the PT, too. But this analysis is only a small part of the video compared to the nitpicks and jokes. That’s why I disagree with the notion that you can show someone the Plinkett reviews in order to convince them that the PT is bad.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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Frank your Majesty said:

That’s why I disagree with the notion that you can show someone the Plinkett reviews in order to convince them that the PT is bad.

If you have to convince someone that the PT is bad, you cannot convince them.

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Mrebo said:

Shopping Maul said:

Why would Rey even know about Anakin’s bedside conversion? I can’t imagine that any rebel worth their salt would be impressed by the notion that Darth Vader’s soul was saved at the last minute. How did this so-called legend spread? And why?
It would’ve been so much better if Rey had simply said “you defeated the Emperor at the battle of Endor!” and Luke had responded with “well, it was a little more complicated than that”. Having the whole Vader/Anakin story become legend makes no sense to me.

But everyone in the galaxy saw the movies! The reaction video of Ben watching ESB is priceless. When he finds out about Vader being Luke’s father he tears Leia and Han’s living room apart. That’s when he was sent off to Luke.

Ha ha, plus he was somewhat grossed out when Mom gave Uncle Luke that big kiss!

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Shopping Maul said:

Mrebo said:

Shopping Maul said:

Why would Rey even know about Anakin’s bedside conversion? I can’t imagine that any rebel worth their salt would be impressed by the notion that Darth Vader’s soul was saved at the last minute. How did this so-called legend spread? And why?
It would’ve been so much better if Rey had simply said “you defeated the Emperor at the battle of Endor!” and Luke had responded with “well, it was a little more complicated than that”. Having the whole Vader/Anakin story become legend makes no sense to me.

But everyone in the galaxy saw the movies! The reaction video of Ben watching ESB is priceless. When he finds out about Vader being Luke’s father he tears Leia and Han’s living room apart. That’s when he was sent off to Luke.

Ha ha, plus he was somewhat grossed out when Mom gave Uncle Luke that big kiss!

No wonder he’s so screwed up. Even Uncle Lando doesn’t want to be around anymore.

The blue elephant in the room.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

Still talking about Luke, I’ll try to clear things up a little bit. I don’t really have a problem with Luke not living up to be the legend he was made out to be. I just don’t understand, for example, how did the legend originate. Like I said in a previous post, his victories were mostly personal and (should be) unknown to the rest of the galaxy, except for destroying the first Death Star. But I can see how a myth or some mystery feeling would grow around him, given that most people probably thought that the mysterious nature of his activities and his sad devotion to an ancient religion were suspicious and weird. And mysterious and wizardry. Anyway.

I don’t get why the tales of his bravery wouldn’t spread and balloon. And he had more victories than we saw in the films.

What tales of bravery? How he led the defense of Echo Base in Hoth and failed miserably? Or how he disappeared only to show up without a hand? Granted, Han Solo’s rescue is a big deal and was probably one of the greatest displays of Luke being a hero, but so what? The clone wars is full of badass moments and missions. Moreso than Han’s rescue. Then Luke basically defected in Endor, and I think the other rebels that didn’t know of his whereabouts were quite suspicious. And then he suddenly comes back! He’d eventually tell Han and Leia what happened, sure, but how the events in the Death Star II eventually led up to a legend is beyond me.

What clone wars moments? There’s only the battle of Geonosis, Coruscant and Utapau.

What I really have a problem with is how he died and ultimately failed his goal, failed his whole purpose in the original trilogy, which was to rebuild the Jedi Order. That makes him a failure imo. Not only that but the movie also makes him betray his character arc in the scene with Kylo with unconvincing explanation as to why, and also present him as some sort of fool for making the exact same mistake that his mentors did years before, mistakes that he was aware were made. And what pisses me off is that all of this happened just so that Rey could have the exact same journey as Luke, specially now that we have the exact same scenario we had in the original movies.

Luke didn’t fail, though. His goal was to become a Jedi (check) and to pass on what he learned (check). He will not be the last Jedi, and Rey won’t be a Jedi like him.

He did fail. Yes, becoming a Jedi was one of his goals, and he achieved that, but at the moment Darth Vader destroyed his beliefs, expectations, values, ideas of his purpose and the reason why he was fighting, his purpose and he himself became much bigger than just becoming a Jedi because his dad was one.

Do you think he passed on what he learned? Not to Rey, I don’t think. She has the books, but that’s about it. He taught her nothing, and the movie made that very clear. She might become a Jedi still, but not from or because of Luke.

Not only did he not teach her nothing, I don’t think he’s done teaching her. And yes, she is going to be a Jedi because of Luke, not just because of the few lessons he taught her, but because he inspired her (and the rest of the galaxy).

Anyway, after RotJ he built a Jedi Order that lasted for probably some 3-5 years, only for it to be destroyed. Another failure. And then he died. His death scene was pretty badass and beautiful, I’ll give you that, and it showed how awesome Luke Skywalker can be. But he still failed. I’m making it sound like that’s the problem - that he failed - but no. The problem is that he died a failure. It served no purpose, it just pissed on his character. Everything he tried to accomplish, accomplished and built was either destroyed or killed, including Luke himself.

He could have just… survived. Been able to go on, to teach a new generation, to learn from his failures rather than to die as one. But that was not allowed.

Did we even watch the same movie? The idea that Luke died a failure… clearly that was not what happened.

Mmm, let me see. Luke was instrumental in bringing peace and justice back to the galaxy. He wanted to train a new generation of Jedi. He made a mistake, and ended up failing his students, and by running away rather than fix that mistake, he allowed a second darkness to take over the galaxy. He is partly responsible for that. Luke’s legacy is one of failure. While he has provided hope for a future generation, it is now up to the next generation to fix his mess. Luke is like a guy with huge debts, who after refusing to pay them, dies just after providing his heirs the hope of paying off those debts in time. That is not a legacy of success in any shape or form.

If you choose to interpret it that (wrong) way that’s your prerogative. But the film (and it’s ending especially) is explicitly about the success of Luke’s legacy, and how that has inspired the galaxy.

No, the film is explicit in the success of Luke’s effort to inspire hope in a terrible situation he was party responsible for. This does not create a legacy of success, it creates a glimmer of hope in a legacy of failure.

If a police force sit on their behinds, and allow a group of criminals to go on a killing spree, they have failed in their duties, even if they belatedly see the error of their ways, and attempt to bring them to justice, or more accurately inspire others to do it for them.

I don’t really think it’s fair to blame the rise of the First Order on Luke.

And the films don’t even really suggest that. The point is that the dark side always comes back. You can’t always stop it from rearing it’s ugly head, what’s important is that there’s hope you can defeat it once again.

The majority of the responsibility isn’t on Luke. However, it is the responsibility of a Jedi to guard peace and justice. The dark side can always come back, but it is a Jedi´s responsibility to prevent that from happening, or if it manages to rise again, do everything in his or her power to defeat it. Luke didn´t live up to that responsibility.

And according to the dialog, Luke feels the rise of the dark side this time was his doing. He blames himself for Kylo Ren. In one respect he is right. The moment he discovered his nephew was strong in the force, he should have started training him. That Leia knows who he is indicates that he had some political role in the New Republic at one point. Or that he had taken over a chunk of the old Empire and his rule was known. How he influenced Ben Solo is not explained. But it is clear from the dialog that Luke waited to train Ben and by the time he started it was too late. Luke was left for dead and he headed out to find the something and ended up on Ahch-to. Luke clearly feels that the Jedi training techniques are flawed and don’t provide what some need to avoid the dark side. His first lesson to Rey is on balance and he freaks out when she doesn’t hesitate to explore the dark side. I think that fear he showed really is telling for how badly Ben’s fall hit him.

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ray_afraid said:

J0E said:

You can pick apart the OT Plinkett style if you wanted to.

People say this, but nobody does because nobody can.
We’re back to the ol’ “There all bad movies!” argument again. bluh.

You completely missed the point.

Never once did I say “they’re all bad movies”. I said that the plot takes a back seat to the characters and character interactions. I’m willing to suspend my disbelieve at the holes in Star Wars, the few holes in Empire, and the massive holes and tonal shifts in Jedi because I’m invested in the characters.

Luke astro-projects himself to Salt Lake Planet, gets shot at by gorilla walkers, has a non-lightsaber duel with Darth Millennial, then dies of a broken heart, inspiring broom boys throughout the galaxy to get creative with their sweeping. - DuracellEnergizer

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TV’s Frink said:

Frank your Majesty said:

That’s why I disagree with the notion that you can show someone the Plinkett reviews in order to convince them that the PT is bad.

If you have to convince someone that the PT is bad, you cannot convince them.

Rational arguments / irrational viewers.

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 (Edited)

I got the impression in TFA that Leia had been shut out of the political process somewhere in those three decades. (I think someone said the novelization suggested the information about her true father was used against her?) Would that also cause the New Republic leadership to distance itself from Luke and the attempt to bring back the Jedi?
That could also factor in Luke’s decisions.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Well for it to be a Resistance, it would need to be underground without official support. There was a deleted scene possibly.

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SilverWook said:

I got the impression in TFA that Leia had been shut out of the political process somewhere in those three decades. (I think someone said the novelization suggested the information about her true father was used against her?) Would that also cause the New Republic leadership to distance itself from Luke and the attempt to bring back the Jedi?
That could also factor in Luke’s decisions.

Bloodline is that story.

Also, sorry guys, RLM sucks.

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Mocata said:

TV’s Frink said:

Frank your Majesty said:

That’s why I disagree with the notion that you can show someone the Plinkett reviews in order to convince them that the PT is bad.

If you have to convince someone that the PT is bad, you cannot convince them.

Rational arguments / irrational viewers.

I think some members of this forum think the PT is good and don’t consider themselves irrational.

The blue elephant in the room.

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yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

Also, sorry guys, RLM sucks.

Not that I disagree, but why to you think that?

Nothing I’ve seen from them tells me they know much about film criticism, they’re just a bunch of loud fans with opinions.

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DominicCobb said:

yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

Also, sorry guys, RLM sucks.

Not that I disagree, but why to you think that?

Nothing I’ve seen from them tells me they know much about film criticism, they’re just a bunch of loud fans with opinions.

Then you must not have seen much of them. They’ve made some silly Star Wars videos in the past few years (not the PT reviews), but most of their content is great.
They certainly know what they’re talking about while also being fans with opinions.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Mrebo said:

Mocata said:

TV’s Frink said:

Frank your Majesty said:

That’s why I disagree with the notion that you can show someone the Plinkett reviews in order to convince them that the PT is bad.

If you have to convince someone that the PT is bad, you cannot convince them.

Rational arguments / irrational viewers.

I think some members of this forum think the PT is good and don’t consider themselves irrational.

That’s the problem.

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 (Edited)

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

yhwx said:

DominicCobb said:

Also, sorry guys, RLM sucks.

Not that I disagree, but why to you think that?

Nothing I’ve seen from them tells me they know much about film criticism, they’re just a bunch of loud fans with opinions.

Then you must not have seen much of them. They’ve made some silly Star Wars videos in the past few years (not the PT reviews), but most of their content is great.
They certainly know what they’re talking about while also being fans with opinions.

Well in what little I have seen they certainly acted like they knew what they were talking about at least…

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Mocata said:

Mrebo said:

Mocata said:

TV’s Frink said:

Frank your Majesty said:

That’s why I disagree with the notion that you can show someone the Plinkett reviews in order to convince them that the PT is bad.

If you have to convince someone that the PT is bad, you cannot convince them.

Rational arguments / irrational viewers.

I think some members of this forum think the PT is good and don’t consider themselves irrational.

That’s the problem.

I don’t think it is.

The problem is insisting we must all come to the same conclusions. I enjoy discussing the merits and faults of SW movies. It’s silly and frustrating to go about with an intent of proving people wrong about their views of Star Wars. You may change someone’s view based on a discussion but it’s nothing to you if that doesn’t happen.

Also, there’s something in the rules about personal insults.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

Mocata said:

Mrebo said:

Mocata said:

TV’s Frink said:

Frank your Majesty said:

That’s why I disagree with the notion that you can show someone the Plinkett reviews in order to convince them that the PT is bad.

If you have to convince someone that the PT is bad, you cannot convince them.

Rational arguments / irrational viewers.

I think some members of this forum think the PT is good and don’t consider themselves irrational.

That’s the problem.

I don’t think it is.

The problem is insisting we must all come to the same conclusions. I enjoy discussing the merits and faults of SW movies. It’s silly and frustrating to go about with an intent of proving people wrong about their views of Star Wars. You may change someone’s view based on a discussion but it’s nothing to you if that doesn’t happen.

I agree.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Mrebo said:

Mocata said:

Mrebo said:

Mocata said:

TV’s Frink said:

Frank your Majesty said:

That’s why I disagree with the notion that you can show someone the Plinkett reviews in order to convince them that the PT is bad.

If you have to convince someone that the PT is bad, you cannot convince them.

Rational arguments / irrational viewers.

I think some members of this forum think the PT is good and don’t consider themselves irrational.

That’s the problem.

I don’t think it is.

The problem is insisting we must all come to the same conclusions. I enjoy discussing the merits and faults of SW movies. It’s silly and frustrating to go about with an intent of proving people wrong about their views of Star Wars. You may change someone’s view based on a discussion but it’s nothing to you if that doesn’t happen.

Also, there’s something in the rules about personal insults.

Yeah it is silly, sorry I thought that was obvious.

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SilverWook said:

I got the impression in TFA that Leia had been shut out of the political process somewhere in those three decades. (I think someone said the novelization suggested the information about her true father was used against her?) Would that also cause the New Republic leadership to distance itself from Luke and the attempt to bring back the Jedi?
That could also factor in Luke’s decisions.

In Bloodline, a recording Bail made to explain Leia’s parentage to her in case of his death is found, and one of her political opponents plays it for the entire Senate, destroying her political career.

This is also how Ben learns about his grandfather, as Leia and Han hadn’t told him yet. (He’s off training with Luke in the book, so we don’t see his reaction to the news.)

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ChainsawAsh said:

SilverWook said:

I got the impression in TFA that Leia had been shut out of the political process somewhere in those three decades. (I think someone said the novelization suggested the information about her true father was used against her?) Would that also cause the New Republic leadership to distance itself from Luke and the attempt to bring back the Jedi?
That could also factor in Luke’s decisions.

In Bloodline, a recording Bail made to explain Leia’s parentage to her in case of his death is found, and one of her political opponents plays it for the entire Senate, destroying her political career.

This is also how Ben learns about his grandfather, as Leia and Han hadn’t told him yet. (He’s off training with Luke in the book, so we don’t see his reaction to the news.)

Slight correction, that’s how Leia thinks (and we presume) Ben learns the truth. We don’t have any reason to think otherwise but there’s no confirmation for sure yet that that’s how Ben learned, as we don’t get his perspective at all in the book.

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I guess that’s one last item they have for EpIX - the whole helmet thing. Was it speaking literally or was it more like a dark side vision when he touched it?

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Mocata said:

I guess that’s one last item they have for EpIX - the whole helmet thing. Was it speaking literally or was it more like a dark side vision when he touched it?

I’m not sure what you mean by “the one last thing.” It’d be interesting if they go back to it but I don’t think Kylo was literally talking to it. More like a totem that helped him center himself in the dark side (like speaking to god by praying to a cross).