In ESB, Obiwan says that if Luke goes to face Vader he will face him alone, “I can not help you”. But look what Yoda did in TLJ. Sure seems like Obiwan could have lent a hand now.
And don’t forget Obi-Wan’s line in ANH: “If you strike me down, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” . Up until TLJ, the most we see a force ghost being able to do is interact with their surroundings by moving some twigs and sitting in a log. A force ghost being able to use that power has been there since day one.
Oh Ady, you know that if the Yoda scene wasn’t in TLJ it wouldn’t even be in question if a force ghost blew something up is absurd or not.
That is literally the line that something has to cross in order to become surreal: before the movie, would that be plausible? If so, ok. If not, then that’s a no. Kylo stopping laser shot mid air? Badass and believable. Yoda blowing it all up? Not so much. Luke projecting himself? Fuck yeah. Leia coming back from the dead? Not so much. These are my standards anyway.
I repeat, these are my standards.
But ask yourself this question. Would you think it’s plausible for that (given thing) to happen, if it was only a hypothetical idea, before executed in the movie?
And about the Obi-Wan line to Vader, a line that could be compared to that is “we are what they grow beyond”, and that Obi-Wan would become a martyr and someone to whom Luke would look up to, eventually resulting in the fall of the Empire.
Collipso, as you saw above I have some of the same questions. If there are supposed to be deeper themes and meaningful character arcs, they should become richer upon inspection, or at least not fall apart. Unless this was the intention, to show that stuff happens and nobody can see the future, nobody is necessarily right or wrong. This plays into the idea that TJL is a nihilist work - something I haven’t been convinced on.
However, RJ may be focused on the ethics of decisions, whatever the morality or practical result. This would at least accord with his treatment of the light vs dark side, I think.
Yeah but I don’t think that simply the ethics of the decisions is a good enough reason to sacrifice basically all the lore and understanding that we previously had and was previously established of the force, how it works and the training to become a powerful force user, etc.
I agree…but if I’m right about what RJ was doing, he came at the project with a wholly different orientatation from which he doesn’t see a conflict, or at least not a meaningful conflict. From that kind of view, telling a story of good vs evil is flat and facile. By making the story a question of ethics, it is automatically more complex. It is like adding a third dimension, rather than creating a conflict - so long as you view it from that third dimension.
To illustrate, consider Yoda’s line that “we are what they grow beyond.” It’s not blatantly at odds with any particular line in the OT. But it is a different point of view from looking beyond this crude matter and to the Force. In that line, I see the same kind of focus on ethical behavior that others can carry on rather than moral choices which allow becoming one with the Force.
I can agree with this.
EDIT: so after reading through the thread since my last post, I guess it comes down to your interpretation. One can interpret what Obi-Wan said in a way, and others naturally in others. I too, like Warb, thought Yoda had created the lighting out of thin air. It’s not something I really have a problem with anyway, just a huge 6 page discussion over a minor nitpick. Then again, this is the Star Wars fan base.