They skipped 30 years because George took a break after ROTJ and here is no way to go back to that period, now.
But they chose to make it a period where several important things happened, rather than progressing the story in a more natural way, so that we could have Empire vs rebels again.
They skipped 30 years because George took a break after ROTJ and here is no way to go back to that period, now.
But they chose to make it a period where several important things happened, rather than progressing the story in a more natural way, so that we could have Empire vs rebels again.
What do you think would’ve been a natural progression of the story?
I think the story would feel more natural if we saw in real time the breakdown between Luke and Kylo, and Snoke’s influence to turn him. Seeing those relatively recent developments could have been more engaging.
The blue elephant in the room.
One fault of ROTS is that it basically tells us “nothing interesting happened for 20 years after this movie” and you suggest they should have done the same for episode 7? No thanks.
Ceci n’est pas une signature.
“we’re well past the fairy-tale idea that in this world there is good and there is evil just because. Movie villains that are simply cackling wrongdoers in this day and age register as false.”
I disagree with both of these points.
Maybe this is one reason why people have so much of a problem with paltry and secondhand Snoke character elements lifted from the Emperor - the Emperor was a villain from a more morally polarized age.
I would have thought people had a problem with Snoke being Emperor2.0 because it’s unoriginal and/or so quickly undoes what the Rebels were fighting for.
chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.
Part of the thing is that Luke/Leia/Han are no longer the central heroes. So expecting them to show us these big events in their lives is expecting a different approach entirely. They are no longer the focus.
Plus, part of the idea here is starting at the lowest point (or near close to it) and finding the hope and fighting forward for the light from there.
They skipped 30 years because George took a break after ROTJ and here is no way to go back to that period, now.
But they chose to make it a period where several important things happened, rather than progressing the story in a more natural way, so that we could have Empire vs rebels again.
What do you think would’ve been a natural progression of the story?
What I mean is that we saw such a huge jump from RotJ reality to TFA reality with barely any explanation that it doesn’t feel very natural to me. Like I said in a previous post, I believe that the ST is a possible future, but several plot points aren’t developed enough to make me believe that all that happened and everything that has to happen would actually happen.
One fault of ROTS is that it basically tells us “nothing interesting happened for 20 years after this movie” and you suggest they should have done the same for episode 7? No thanks.
I disagree. I don’t think we need important things happening all the time. The natural progression post-RotJ in my view would be the eventual rise of the republic and the training of a new reformed Jedi Order that has almost nothing to do with the PT-Jedi Order because Luke is nothing like them. Apparently the latter didn’t happen, but the Republic thing did. But that’s not really exciting, and is nothing unexpected that would need to be documetned.
But there was this crazy thing in the Jedi temple where Kylo Ren killed everyone. There was turmoil in the republic and Leia going rogue and forming a resistance. The weak remnants of the Empire growing super strong. So that are things that if you just tell me that they happen I won’t really believe it.
My argument will eventually go back to the FO and Snoke being severely underdeveloped, combining it with the 3 flashbacks trying to sell me that Luke would almost kill his nephew. No thanks.
Part of the thing is that Luke/Leia/Han are no longer the central heroes. So expecting them to show us these big events in their lives is expecting a different approach entirely. They are no longer the focus.
Plus, part of the idea here is starting at the lowest point (or near close to it) and finding the hope and fighting forward for the light from there.
I agree with you, but starting at the lowest point with a new hope is literally the plot of the OT, and we’ve already seen it.
Part of the thing is that Luke/Leia/Han are no longer the central heroes. So expecting them to show us these big events in their lives is expecting a different approach entirely. They are no longer the focus.
Plus, part of the idea here is starting at the lowest point (or near close to it) and finding the hope and fighting forward for the light from there.
I agree with you, but starting at the lowest point with a new hope is literally the plot of the OT, and we’ve already seen it.
No, it is the premise of the OT in simply the vaguest of definitions.
I don’t think we need important things happening all the time.
Excellent point. The ST could have been smaller stories that are just as engaging. That’s just what I’d have wanted out of a ST following directly after Jedi.
Anybody else think it’d be cool if TFA was titled Ep. 10? Even if a middle trilogy was never made (and I’d hope it wasn’t), it would inspire imagination the way titling ANH Ep. 4 did and be a cool way to acknowledge that some important things have happened in the meantime. Maybe just me.
I don’t think we need important things happening all the time.
Anybody else think it’d be cool if TFA was titled Ep. 10? Even if a middle trilogy was never made (and I’d hope it wasn’t), it would inspire imagination the way titling ANH Ep. 4 did and be a cool way to acknowledge that some important things have happened in the meantime. Maybe just me.
Yes, I’ve had that thought (and mentioned it here) a few times before.
I definitely preferred the sound mix in TLJ than in TFA. Not even a question. Visual effects too, but the one scene where Luke is fishing (where he jumps and grabs that huge stick over the water) looked pretty fake to me. And of course the cgi horses looked very bad to me too.
Lightsabers looked too much like they were actually there - reminded me of a lightsaber toy or replica in some shots. TFA’s sabers were definitely better for me. And the screen wipes were either out of place or too fast.
Overall I really loved how the movie looked and sounded though, a lot more than TFA.
Regarding lightsabers however, TFA > TLJ.
Again, waiting for the Blu-ray to see the full film, but the lightsabers in TFA looked like they had weight to them, as well as a feeling there was actual energy being emitted. Sure, the white core could have been brighter, but if they look more like the prequels then TFA that seems like a step too far in the opposite direction.
Speaking of SFX, from what I have seen in trailers I still think the ships look kinda fake, especially after seeing how beautiful Rogue One’s enhanced recreations of the ANH ships were. Maybe when building CGI ships it helps to actually have a real world reference (meaning, something actually fully built in the real world) before the model is created but, I know, too expensive.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the OT models were laser scanned for Rogue One.
As a matter of fact they DID! Well, with the Star Destroyers they acquired all of the model kits that were kitbashed to create the original Star Destroyer model, scanned them, and painstakingly recreated the original model in the computer. From there they added more details, usually from other parts of the same kits. This process was used for all the recreations of the original models, and they look more lifelike for it, whereas the ST’s Star Destroyers look alright, but they’re too flat in terms of surface detail and lack a physical presence that the R1 CGI ships had.
Here’s a video where John Knoll discusses his work on R1, and talks about the Star Destroyer in particular starting at 12:47: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUafi3EWBY8
I don’t think we need important things happening all the time.
Anybody else think it’d be cool if TFA was titled Ep. 10? Even if a middle trilogy was never made (and I’d hope it wasn’t), it would inspire imagination the way titling ANH Ep. 4 did and be a cool way to acknowledge that some important things have happened in the meantime. Maybe just me.
Yes, I would’ve loved that. It feels so much more like an Episode X than an Episode VII. The way it was made it feel like it needs a prequel, a lot more than the OT needed.
I definitely preferred the sound mix in TLJ than in TFA. Not even a question. Visual effects too, but the one scene where Luke is fishing (where he jumps and grabs that huge stick over the water) looked pretty fake to me. And of course the cgi horses looked very bad to me too.
Lightsabers looked too much like they were actually there - reminded me of a lightsaber toy or replica in some shots. TFA’s sabers were definitely better for me. And the screen wipes were either out of place or too fast.
Overall I really loved how the movie looked and sounded though, a lot more than TFA.
Regarding lightsabers however, TFA > TLJ.
Again, waiting for the Blu-ray to see the full film, but the lightsabers in TFA looked like they had weight to them, as well as a feeling there was actual energy being emitted. Sure, the white core could have been brighter, but if they look more like the prequels then TFA that seems like a step too far in the opposite direction.
Speaking of SFX, from what I have seen in trailers I still think the ships look kinda fake, especially after seeing how beautiful Rogue One’s enhanced recreations of the ANH ships were. Maybe when building CGI ships it helps to actually have a real world reference (meaning, something actually fully built in the real world) before the model is created but, I know, too expensive.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the OT models were laser scanned for Rogue One.
As a matter of fact they DID! Well, with the Star Destroyers they acquired all of the model kits that were kitbashed to create the original Star Destroyer model, scanned them, and painstakingly recreated the original model in the computer. From there they added more details, usually from other parts of the same kits. This process was used for all the recreations of the original models, and they look more lifelike for it, whereas the ST’s Star Destroyers look alright, but they’re too flat in terms of surface detail and lack a physical presence that the R1 CGI ships had.
Here’s a video where John Knoll discusses his work on R1, and talks about the Star Destroyer in particular starting at 12:47: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUafi3EWBY8
Awesome! Having seen the movie twice in 70mm, that attention to detail really paid off. Thanks for the link.
Where were you in '77?
I don’t think we need important things happening all the time.
Anybody else think it’d be cool if TFA was titled Ep. 10? Even if a middle trilogy was never made (and I’d hope it wasn’t), it would inspire imagination the way titling ANH Ep. 4 did and be a cool way to acknowledge that some important things have happened in the meantime. Maybe just me.
Yes, I would’ve loved that. It feels so much more like an Episode X than an Episode VII. The way it was made it feel like it needs a prequel, a lot more than the OT needed.
An Interquel Trilogy (IT)
Part of the thing is that Luke/Leia/Han are no longer the central heroes. So expecting them to show us these big events in their lives is expecting a different approach entirely. They are no longer the focus.
Plus, part of the idea here is starting at the lowest point (or near close to it) and finding the hope and fighting forward for the light from there.
I agree with you, but starting at the lowest point with a new hope is literally the plot of the OT, and we’ve already seen it.
No, it is the premise of the OT in simply the vaguest of definitions.
How so? The basic story premise is the same. Evil Empire has to be stopped by fledgling rebellion. Another Jedi apprentice has been seduced by the dark side, while another new hope waits in the wings to stop him.
I think enough has been written on how TFA is very similar to ANH with some TESB in there as well.
While TLJ subverts expectations to an extend, it’s still very much a mix of TESB and ROTJ scenes:
Then there’s the aesthetics, which are slightly modernized take on the OT aesthetics, but definitely not their own thing.
The ST is like a greatest hits album, where the songs are in a different order with a couple of new songs thrown in the mix for good measure, and perhaps some new orchestrations. As with any greatest hits album, the context of the original albums from which the songs were taken is lost. Some new context is provided with the new songs, but it ultimately feels much weaker IMO, because it’s not an original album by an original artist, but a cover band emulating the original artist by mostly remixing his old hits.
To subvert expectations, you must first establish those expectations. This is one of the things that bothers me about TLJ, since either way it’s looking to the past instead of finding a new way forward. There’s no rule that you have to have a planet-destroying superweapon, or an AT-AT battle on a white planet, or a confrontation in a throne room that mirrors ROTJ.
It reminds me of my first attempts at writing an alternate PT. Even after writing the synopses of dozens of concepts that I thought were unique and brilliant, it was only upon later reflection that I realized that my mind was still subconsciously following the OT plot. It took a lot of time and thought and writing to find something genuinely original to say about this universe, and there just wasn’t enough time for JJ or Rian to do this.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
an AT-AT battle on a white planet
No, it is the premise of the OT in simply the vaguest of definitions.
So you’re nitpicking visual similarities now? But then, the planet isn’t really white, it’s red, with a white cover and when the salt is blown away, the visual similarities start to vanish.
Ceci n’est pas une signature.
If it were not for the classic characters returning, and the fact that they’re technically eps. VII AND VIII, these films would not be called sequels, but a reboot, a reworking of an original story, namely the OT.
an AT-AT battle on a white planet
No, it is the premise of the OT in simply the vaguest of definitions.
So you’re nitpicking visual similarities now? But then, the planet isn’t really white, it’s red, with a white cover and when the salt is blown away, the visual similarities start to vanish.
It’s not really white? It just looks that way? I see, it’s Mars disguised as Hoth. Seriously though, we have a white planet, and a walker assault on a rebel base. Sounds like a Hoth reprise to me. It’s Hoth with a twist, like almost everything in the ST is the OT with a twist. Adding a twist does not make a story thread original. This to me is the ST’s greatest weakness. It should have told an original story, that flows naturally from the OT. In stead it largely rehashes the OT, adds a few twists, and deconstructs the classical characters to fit the mold.
As soon as the gliders start their attack, the planet isn’t entirely white anymore, the red dust makes it look completely different from Hoth, so your problem is basically that there are AT-ATs in the movie.
Ceci n’est pas une signature.
If you’re using an album analogy, then surely the Special Edition is the ‘remastered’ re-release with bonus track.
The ST are new albums by an old band, and yes stylistically they haven’t changed that much but they have still topped the charts and been critically acclaimed.
Dre, you are just one of those ‘living in the past’ curmudgeonly fans who grumbles that there early stuff was better!
And if the snow melted on Hoth, it would not have been white anymore. Same concept for the scene with Snoke, Rey and Ren; basically the same scene from an earlier film, complete with the tried and true ‘take your lightsaber, strike me down…’.
If you’re using an album analogy, then surely the Special Edition is the ‘remastered’ re-release with bonus track.
It is. The ST is a remix of old tracks with an updated orchestration, and a few bonus tracks.
The ST are new albums by an old band, and yes stylistically they haven’t changed that much but they have still topped the charts and been critically acclaimed.
New albums?
TFA = ANH + TESB + twists
TLJ = TESB + ROTJ + twists
You would be hard pressed to find a story thread in the ST, that isn’t in some way derived from an OT story thread.
Dre, you are just one of those ‘living in the past’ curmudgeonly fans who grumbles that there early stuff was better!
That’s because it is.