logo Sign In

The problem of Owen Lars — Page 3

Author
Time

I always called my aunt’s husband ‘uncle’.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

The Merchant said:

Going by just the OT, one comes to the conclusion Beru and Owen are Anakins brother and sister, at least if one takes Luke calling them Aunt and Uncle at face value.

Damn, so much incest in the Skywalker-Lars line. The Force certainly has a warped sense of humour.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

She was once Beru Skywalker, Anikins sister. She was never trained, but is force sensitive and can see things before they happen. She married Owen Lars who never agreed with such “wizardry”.
Watch the films with this in mind and it works just as well as Obi-Wan’s twisting the truth to Luke. For me, it makes the entire backstory more interesting as both Owen and Beru would be strongly connected to and involved with the plot of the PT. It would give an opportunity for a good female character and much better relationship dynamics.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

Author
Time
 (Edited)

ray_afraid said:

She was once Beru Skywalker, Anikins sister. She was never trained, but is force sensitive and can see things before they happen. She married Owen Lars who never agreed with such “wizardry”.
Watch the films with this in mind and it works just as well as Obi-Wan’s twisting the truth to Luke. For me, it makes the entire backstory more interesting as both Owen and Beru would be strongly connected to and involved with the plot of the PT. It would give an opportunity for a good female character and much better relationship dynamics.

They’re both just boring farmers that wore the same clothes for 25 years and aged four decades in a little over two. According to the PT that is.

The Person in Question

Author
Time

Ultimately I think this is yet another of the problems/issues created by the multitudes of drafts getting redone and reduced over and over before finally becoming a simple lower budget filmable narrative that was then retconned and further complicated by the plot twists in the sequels that then undermined the story of the first film. The EU made attempts to define some of these which are now out so again we’re back at square one.

Soooo…I’m just going to stick with the adoptive parents who may or may not actually be blood relatives.
As a kid I often wondered how in the hell would Vader not recognize his only relatives suddenly have offspring and could only surmise that there was some pain inherent to his character that would make Tatooine the last place he would ever go…yet Vader seemingly has no restrictions or memory of anything in SW because the character shift didn’t exist yet…isn’t the inconsistent retconning fun? 😉

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Anchorhead said:

SilverWook said:

You were never curious about how much they knew and were keeping from Luke?

Not at all. Other than Beru mentioning that “he’s too much like his father”, it never felt like there was anything there. From what we’ve known since then (early script\story\characters\Original Vision nonsense), there wasn’t anything there. Owen, Beru, and Ben let us know that Luke’s father was a good pilot, a good man, and was killed when Luke was young.

They were a character vehicle to get a farm boy out in the middle of nowhere and have him feel less attached to his family because they aren’t his parents. They’re in the film to add a bit of depth on our main character.

Since Vader wasn’t his father in the 70s, there was no reason to ponder anything that Lucas retconned about Luke’s parents in the 80s and 90s. I never gave them any thought because there wasn’t anything there in 1977.

I think Luke was related to Vader in some familial fashion already when the film was made. But yeah, Vader most definitely wasn’t Annikin/Anakin Skywalker in 1977, nor even in 78 pre-production for TESB. I maintain that Lucas didn’t make that switch until he started on the third film (or, very, very late in TESB’s post-production period). A Vader who is not Anakin/Annikin but is Luke’s biological father doesn’t explicitly contradict what Ben told Luke. No certain point of view required, or “metaphorical” death, since Annikin/Anakin would have been killed in this scenario as well. There probably was a ‘secret identity’ involved with Vader’s character, but this aspect was of course muted so that Star Wars could work as a stand alone movie, should the planned “books two and three” sequels not get made. To me, that’s where the whole “no there, there” comes in.

Author
Time

Well I think it was at least before post production, I remember an interview with Mark where he said George pulled him aside before shooting the scene and told him so he would know to react stronger than expected.

Author
Time

I think that there are hints that Lucas may have have the idea earlier. Vader being Luke’s father is not in any of the screenplay drafts for the same reason that even David Prowse did not know - secrecy.

But we have been forgetting another group of people who knew the secret - Del Rey. The novelization came out about the same time as the movie. According to Wookiepedia it was May 1980. Donald F. Glut, the writer, had to know about it far enough in advance to put in the correct wording (interesting to note that Luke knew Vader was telling the truth in the novel), as did the publishers, editors, proof readers, type setters, etc. But that is a group that has been good at keeping secrets for a very long time.

I seriously don’t think this was a last minute change. I think he went in with this in mind. He wrote the story and Leigh Brackett did the screenplay and on all the copies I’ve seen, that spot says “insert dialog B”. Whether he let her in on the secret or not, we can’t know, but the draft scripts that got out do not have any line at that spot. I think he had some backstory planned for Anakin that was not what Ben told Luke in ANH (what that is no one knows), but Alec Guinness made this face right before he launched into the story of what happened that just screams something more significant. That was either a lucky coincidence or a brilliant inclusion.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Possessed said:

Well I think it was at least before post production, I remember an interview with Mark where he said George pulled him aside before shooting the scene and told him so he would know to react stronger than expected.

To be more clear, I was proposing that the idea of Vader being the same person as Annikin/Anakin - the man the Ben talked about in the first film - was not put in place until Lucas started on ROTJ, or very late in (post) production for TESB (my more ‘charitable’ estimate). Vader was indeed Luke’s father when TESB was made, but he was someone else under the mask - not Annikin/Anakin, but possibly another Skywalker (brother of Annikin), or even Ben’s son. Even if the relationship wasn’t a paternal one, still some sort of familial relationship and ‘secret identity’ was meant to be there when the first film was being made. However, the idea was temporarily set aside in order that the movie would work as a stand-alone.

Author
Time

So what’s the deal with David Prowse revealing at a Berkley convention in 1978 that Vader would be revealed to be Luke’s father in “Star Wars III”?

For reference.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

A lucky guess most likely. The whole finding out your foe is your father thing probably goes as far back as ancient mythology.

I don’t think that article got any circulation outside the San Francisco area, or magazines like Starlog would have picked up on that quote and gone to town with it.

Given the later furor over Prowse allegedly spilling plot points on ROTJ that lead to the falling out with George, I doubt the flanneled one ever found out about this.

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I think the very ‘linear’ proposal that Lucas came up with Vader=Anakin totally out-of-the-blue, in the Spring of '78 while writing (or re-writing) TESB, is the least probable scenario.

Yotsuya, Obi-Wan wasn’t lying in the scenario that I propose. His ‘funny face’ or hesitation is the due to the fact that he knew that Owen never told Luke that his father was murdered. In the alternate scenario (while ‘alternate’ I think it’s more probable than the orthodox version(s) we are told to believe), Annikin/Anakin was indeed killed by Vader, the twist would have been that Vader - or whoever Vader really was beneath the mask - was the actual father of Luke, or barring that, family member X. And let’s be honest: how could Ben know for a certainty that his friend Annikin (original spelling) was Luke’s father? All the story really needed was the presumption that he was. And from Ben’s point of view, with his assumption of Annikin’s role in Luke’s paternity, he would have no reason to believe that his former Jedi student was the actual biological father of Luke, whoever he was prior to becoming Vader.

The genesis of a ‘secret identity’ for Vader goes all the way back at least to December of 1975, in a story conference which Lucas held along with writer/novelist Alan Dean Foster, FX supervisor John Dykstra, and a few others (Kurtz of course knew). How David Prowse could have found out about this is anyone’s guess. However, Lucas realized in Jan of 1976 that Star Wars might only be realized as a single film, so he re-worked the script to make the movie read as a stand-alone. Thus, a bigger role for Tarkin, superseding that of Vader. And Vader - on a surface reading at least - is just Vader, and had no other name.

When SW became a hit, and actuall full-budget sequel movies became a real possibility, Lucas re-visisted the ‘secret identity’ aspect of Vader’s character.
edit: For all the talk of the orthodox version* of Star Wars (*i.e. where there are absolutely no familial connections among the main characters whatsoever) exhibiting a ‘larger universe’ until the familial retcons in the sequels ‘shrunk’ that universe, this version of Star Wars would have been a stand-alone movie that would have inspired ONE sequel, at best. (say, something in the vein of Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, except where Luke would have possibly killed Vader), and probably only ONE prequel.

Author
Time

^ Well said.

I do think Vader being Luke’s older brother was a strong possibility. Again, very mythological, and as far back as the 1975 second draft you have the motif of the extended Skywalker family and Luke having to deal with an older brother or two.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

Author
Time

Wow… that is some complicated nonsense. Vader is Luke’s father but not Anakin… that makes no sense at all. The name Anakin hadn’t come up yet when Vader, in James Earl Jones’s voice (or in the novel if you read that first), said he was Luke’s father. We have no idea when Lucas decided that was going to be the story, but script hints at it with the consistent lack of any line at that location (referring instead to inserted dialog). We only know that sometime between the dated first draft in Feb 78 and the completion of filming in Sept 79 that Vader was Luke’s father. It could have been earlier (and not included in what he gave Leigh Brackett on the story), but we really don’t know. It was almost certainly in the script that the novelization writer worked off of, but that was about the same time.

Lucas claims he had that in mind from earlier, but with his track record at reconning the past, he can’t be completely trusted. But, others can. Hamill, Kershner, and Kasdan had no reason to lie and according to them it was intended that way from Hamill’s performance on set and had been that way in the full screenplay (not the shooting copies given to the crew) for quite some time. The earlier drafts of the screenplay bear this out by having a reference to inserted dialog. According to the book Star Wars: The Annotated Scripts (by Laurent Bouzereau), it was the second draft that had the first version of the iconic “I am your father” scene. That was the draft Lucas did himself before Kasdan came on board. This doesn’t quite back Lucas up, but it does place it very early in the story development.

Author
Time

The idea of Vader and Anakin being the same person seems to date from the making of ESB, as you say. But the notion of Vader being a secret Skywalker (Luke’s brother, uncle, illegitimate father) seems to have been present even on the first film: in a 1975 conversation with Alan Dean Foster, Lucas said the second SW film was when we would “learn who Darth Vader is”.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

Wow… that is some complicated nonsense. Vader is Luke’s father but not Anakin… that makes no sense at all.

Vader being Luke’s father doesn’t automatically mean he specifically used to be Anakin. Don’t get me wrong; I used to think that it did as well, until I looked into it a bit more. Vader and Anakin remaining separate people - with the former being the father of Luke rather than the latter - makes for a better explanation for why Ben and Yoda don’t warn Luke about this in ESB, and coheres with what Ben told Luke in the first film, without the whole “certain point of view” thing. And as I asked before: how can Ben be absolutely certain that his friend (Annikin/Anakin) was Luke’s (biological) father? Of course, this is predicated on Yoda and Ben - and of course, the Emperor - all assuming the Anakin was the father, and not knowing that it was actually Vader. There’s also that line of Vader’s from ESB: “Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.” How could Vader know this? Unless…Vader knew something that Obi-Wan didn’t know.

yotsuya said:

The name Anakin hadn’t come up yet when Vader, in James Earl Jones’s voice (or in the novel if you read that first), said he was Luke’s father.

Actually, it had come up by then, but it was spelled Annikin, instead. It was in a continuity discussion between Carol Titleman and SW director or marketing Charles Lippincott dated July/August of 1977. For whatever reason, Lucas wasn’t using it in his ESB notes. Another name, that of “Tan Skywalker” was used in some licensing material from 1979 (the Russ Manning Sunday Comic strip authorized by Black Falcon LTD, an LFL subsidiary). Otherwise, he kept Luke’s father as a nameless character, until ROTJ, when he finally decided upon Anakin.

yotsuya said:

We have no idea when Lucas decided that was going to be the story, but script hints at it with the consistent lack of any line at that location (referring instead to inserted dialog). We only know that sometime between the dated first draft in Feb 78 and the completion of filming in Sept 79 that Vader was Luke’s father. It could have been earlier (and not included in what he gave Leigh Brackett on the story), but we really don’t know. It was almost certainly in the script that the novelization writer worked off of, but that was about the same time.

In my opinion, what I think is more improbable/ludicrous (or what you would call, “nonsense”) is the idea that Lucas suddenly came up with Vader=Anakin, in the Spring of 1978 (the period you refer to), with no prior precedent.

yotsuya said:

Lucas claims he had that in mind from earlier, but with his track record at reconning the past, he can’t be completely trusted. But, others can. Hamill, Kershner, and Kasdan had no reason to lie and according to them it was intended that way from Hamill’s performance on set and had been that way in the full screenplay (not the shooting copies given to the crew) for quite some time. The earlier drafts of the screenplay bear this out by having a reference to inserted dialog.

All that says is that they were told that Vader would claim to be Luke’s father…still a far cry from establishing that he’s the same father character that Ben talked about in the first film, or the Anakin of ROTJ.

yotsuya said:

According to the book Star Wars: The Annotated Scripts (by Laurent Bouzereau), it was the second draft that had the first version of the iconic “I am your father” scene. That was the draft Lucas did himself before Kasdan came on board. This doesn’t quite back Lucas up, but it does place it very early in the story development.

Yes, and in this same draft, Yoda still tells Luke that his father and Ben were both his students and that they trained on the bog planet, just like he says in the first draft. Vader was still being said to have been Ben’s student. So even with Vader being Luke’s father, he most likely wasn’t supposed to be the same father character that Ben talked about in the first film, if that man, along with Ben, were both trained by someone else (in this case Yoda)> This was subsequently changed in one of Lucas’s re-writes (the typed version of the Second Draft), where Yoda says that he trained Ben, who then trained Luke’s father. Which, btw, doesn’t indicate necessarily that by then, Anakin and Vader were the same person. Marvel Comics, in a story flash back (from the Annual issue #1 dated 1979), took it as meaning that Ben had TWO apprentices, Skywalker Sr. and Darth Vader. The later drafts, from the Third draft (by Kasdan) onwards, dropped the whole subject of who trained Luke’s father from the script entirely, leaving that matter up to the next film. But please not that in the final film, Skywalker Sr. and Vader are still spoken of as separate people by the Emperor, and only Vader is still spoken of as Ben’s (former) student.

To sum up, it was only with ROTJ that is was established that:

  1. Vader was Luke’s father
  2. That he used to be Anakin - the same friend and father of Luke that Ben talked about in the first film
  3. That Anakin was trained by Ben (Obi-Wan)

edit to add:

ATMachine said:

The idea of Vader and Anakin being the same person seems to date from the making of ESB, as you say. But the notion of Vader being a secret Skywalker (Luke’s brother, uncle, illegitimate father) seems to have been present even on the first film: in a 1975 conversation with Alan Dean Foster, Lucas said the second SW film was when we would “learn who Darth Vader is”.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This.

ATMachine, I think the “stumbling block” for a lot of people on the “secret Skywalker” thing for Vader’s former identity pre-Vader, is the forgone conclusion that Anakin Skywalker was envisioned as an only child back when Star Wars was made, just like he is in the PT.

Author
Time

^I can believe that there was always supposed to be more to Darth Vader than we were originally told.

Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? none holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. – Quran (16:79)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

ToscheStation said:
ATMachine, I think the “stumbling block” for a lot of people on the “secret Skywalker” thing for Vader’s former identity pre-Vader, is the forgone conclusion that Anakin Skywalker was envisioned as an only child back when Star Wars was made, just like he is in the PT.

This is a good suggestion. That’s an assumption on their part, though, and not necessarily warranted. I mean, you’d think Uncle Owen would be reason enough to doubt this received wisdom.

Even in the 1974 rough draft, protagonist Annikin Starkiller (who was a template for Anakin when Lucas made ESB and ROTJ) had a younger brother, and Luke had an older brother of his own in the January '75 second draft. The idea of a Skywaker sibling predates Vader being Anakin by several years.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Of course, there’s also the fact that Ben’s age was said to be at least 70 in the August 1975 third draft.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

Author
Time

Isn’t there an early script where Luke is older than Annikin? I’ll try to find where I saw it.

Forum Moderator
Author
Time

Anchorhead said:

Isn’t there an early script where Luke is older than Annikin? I’ll try to find where I saw it.

That would be the first draft. Luke was the Obi-Wan figure with Annikin playing the hot-headed apprentice.

Author
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

Anchorhead said:

Isn’t there an early script where Luke is older than Annikin? I’ll try to find where I saw it.

That would be the first draft. Luke was the Obi-Wan figure with Annikin playing the hot-headed apprentice.

Yeah, in this case the names are misleading, but the character archetypes are similar to the film we know. Though some of Annikin’s brashness later was given to Han Solo instead.

Lucas seems to have used 1974 Annikin as a template for some aspects of Anakin Skywalker: like Luke, he’s a powerful Jedi and a skilled pilot, but he has an impulsiveness and a temper that’s difficult to restrain. And Lucas in 1974 imagined Annikin with dark hair, like Jeffrey Hunter in The Searchers, and also Sebastian Shaw.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

Author
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

Anchorhead said:

Isn’t there an early script where Luke is older than Annikin? I’ll try to find where I saw it.

That would be the first draft. Luke was the Obi-Wan figure with Annikin playing the hot-headed apprentice.

I really like reading the old Star Wars drafts, and older drafts of the prequels. Somehow, when you just read a premise, what you briefly imagine ends up being better than any movie actually is.

Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? none holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe. – Quran (16:79)