Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo — Page 372

What numbers counted as balanced? 25/25/25/25?

It was similar here in my northern high school much more recently, though we didn’t have enough black students to take a whole table. The Asians usually all sat together, anyway, at least the ones who didn’t assimilate to the dominant nonthinking airhead culture. By the time I graduated, that was beginning to change. Might have reversed by now. Who knows.

The cultures everyone grows up with still depends heavily on race, and since people like being near people they can relate to, it leads to a lot of separation between the races. It’s unfortunate, but there’s not much you can really do about it. You see it a lot in college too, despite all the talk of integration and diversity. Cultural divides. I wish I could say “At least we’re not hostile about it”, but recent events in the nation have proven otherwise.

suspiciouscoffee said:

"Either we do it how we’re doing it and that ensures that everybody is happy or we go to the student body electing whomever they want to be the queen and that could be a white girl every year,”

which shows a complete lack of faith in us students, who have been calling for change for years, so it seems that probably wouldn’t be the case.

Maybe it is a lack of faith in the students, but if racism is as alive and well as you believe, the school may have a point in doing it this way.

Btw, How does the school handle girls of other races (Middle Eastern, Asian, Native Americans, etc) when it comes to the home coming court?

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

yhwx said:

Warbler said:

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

public school segregation is unconstitutional. As for white kids going to private schools, I am not sure what can be done about that. This is America, if you have enough money amd want to send your kids to private school, you can.

Sure, but you can make sure public schools have the resources to provide an adequate education. The trick is that wherever most of the white kids go to private schools, the (disproportionately minority) public school system can, and does, go to hell from lack of funding.

well of course all public schools need to be adequately funded. You will get no argument from me on that.

Also, my experience is that school segregation happens everywhere as a function of housing segregation,

I pretty sure that housing segregation is not allowed under the civil rights act. People have the right to live where they want regardless of skin color, assuming they can afford to live in said place.

which is also a serious issue. But in some places, the school segregation is out of proportion with the housing segregation, which is what I was talking about.

again school segregation is unconstitutional.

It is, but it doesn’t stop school systems from doing it.

any school system that does this should be sued.

Sure, but who wants to lawyer up over some homecoming vote? Too much money, too much time and effort.

Back in the 70s and 80s, schools were required to make sure that they were racially balanced. This required busing in some students from wider distances. Some parents didn’t like this, and the courts ruled that schools were integrated enough, so it wasn’t required anymore.

I don’t know that we need rules to make schools racially balanced,

Apparently we do. It worked back then.

just make rules schools much take kids of all color if they live in the school district. Of course you also have to make sure no one is playing games when they are drawing the lines of the district.

And that’s not even considering places like where I went to school, where the school was integrated, but the individual classrooms were not.

? Please explain.

I’m assuming the school would be more or less balanced racially, but individual classrooms would be almost all white or all black.

Also how is this not sued out of existence?

Not everything bad is sued out of existence.

Well I don’t know what to tell you. If the school is deliberately separating classrooms by race, that is a violation of the constitution. The school should be sued. It would be an open and shut case. The school would lose.

See above.

I guess what I am saying is, if the schools treat children of all races the same and do not discriminate, is it a bid deal if one school district just happens to wind up mostly white and another mostly black(assuming both schools are adequately funded)? Any black kid wanting to go to the school that is majority white just needs to move in the that school’s district, assuming they can afford it and vice versa.

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

I pretty sure that housing segregation is not allowed under the civil rights act. People have the right to live where they want regardless of skin color, assuming they can afford to live in said place.

And yet there it is, no longer de jure but still very much de facto.

I consider de jure a bit different than de facto

Admittedly many of these homeowners bought their homes back when redlining was legal, or inherited it from their parents who bought it under segregated circumstances.

Redlining is no longer legal. As for inheriting from the parent, just what do you want done about that? Do you want to make it illegal for for white people to inherit houses from their parents? Pass a law that whenever a white person dies, their house must be sold to a non-white person?

Hell, I’ve got a covenant on my property from 1954 that I believe literally says no “negroes or yellow races” can live on the property, except as servants. Sure it’s unenforceable now, but it was normal then. But I’d like to get it removed in case the legal landscape changes and it’s enforceable again (it’s hard to remove because the covenant was applied to a vast swath of land, not just my property).

I agree it would be a good idea to get it removed. It would leave a bad taste in my mouth if my had such a covenant.

again school segregation is unconstitutional.

If 100% of the people living in your district are of a certain race, their schools inherit their racial segregation from the housing segregation, now that busing is pretty much over. De jure or de facto, amounts to the same thing.

There is a big difference a in school just ending up all white because the town is(unless there is housing descrimination going on), and the school ending up all white because it discriminates against black people and refuses the let them attend.

And that’s not even considering places like where I went to school, where the school was integrated, but the individual classrooms were not.

? Please explain. Also how is this not sued out of existence?

About 30% of my school was racial minorities. But there were “tracks”: remedial, general, college prep, International Baccalaureate. It wasn’t segregated directly by race, but you could walk into an I.B. classroom and be blinded by the whiteness. Segregation by racial proxies (teacher recommendations were a big factor, and that could easily have a strong bias), failing to address other racial inequities, gets you the same results. A minority could get into the higher tracks, and they occasionally did, but they often outclassed the whole school, when simply being pretty bright was enough for the rest.

So you are saying that teachers at your school were biased in their recommendations and that ended up making the advanced classes more white? That would a be difficult situation, as it would be difficult to prove in court.

CatBus said:

yhwx said:

CatBus said:

And don’t even get started with the lunchroom. That was discouraging.

Do tell.

It was terrible. You know how I know about 30% of my school was comprised of minorities when only about four of them were ever in any of my classes? Because an aerial view of the lunchroom would easily have shown that a 30% contiguous chunk of it was occupied by minorites, while another 70% contiguous chunk was entirely white kids. Pretty much zero mixing except at the sparsely-occupied border tables (read: poor white kids like my friends, who, I’ll be honest, were frequently racist as shit, but they didn’t have the money to sit elsewhere). The side of the lunchroom with the outdoor view? White (and rich). Now this was probably exaggerated by “you sit by your classroom friends and the classrooms are segregated, so of course the lunchroom is segregated” but shit. Every single day it’s right there in the open for everyone to see, and every single day it’s normal. Late eighties, Ohio.

Was it against the rules of the school for black kids to sit in the area with the view? Did one have to pay to sit at this “rich” table? If it was voluntary, I am not sure what should be done, short of making rule requiring each student to sit next to a kid of different race at lunch.

Still beats the other district I attended which had the only black family move in while my sister was in high school. They got a cross burned in their yard, and didn’t stay.

Now that is depressing. You would think by now that kind of thing would no longer happen.

corellian77 said:

Warbler said:

What do you mean by “current injustices that are derived from these things?” How do you wipe out the legacy of slavery?

As for white kids going to private schools, I am not sure what can be done about that. This is America, if you have enough money amd want to send your kids to private school, you can.

I pretty sure that housing segregation is not allowed under the civil rights act. People have the right to live where they want regardless of skin color, assuming they can afford to live in said place.

I think a few people (CatBus, DominicCobb, and suspiciouscoffee) have already done a good job of responding to this, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents. You ask how racism/segregation is still prevalent in American society, and you have twice answered your own question. If the ability to live in “nice neighbourhoods” and attend “good schools” is contingent on having the money to make such things possible, and if certain races generally don’t have access to such money, then this is a form of racism/segregation.

I disagree. We live a capitalistic system. The free market. If you want something nice, you have to earn enough money and buy it. We don’t give mansions away for free.

Now one might argue that anyone, regardless of race, has the opportunity to make enough money to live where they wish and attend whatever school they wish, but if society is set up to keep people in their existing socioeconomic class, and if people in lower socioeconomic classes are generally minorities, therein lies the institutional racism mentioned earlier.

But is that the way society is set up in America? It might very difficult to move up a socioeconomic class, but it is doable. For example, there are all sorts of social problems to help people who can’t afford it, to get into college.

If a child lives in a poor neighbourhood and attends a poor school due to his family not having enough money to do otherwise, then the child himself is likely to grow up and find himself in the same boat. The cycle perpetuates itself, not because any one person is saying, “Don’t live here” and “Go to school there,” but simply because society makes it difficult to escape one’s current class, and due to American history, many racial minorities find themselves in the lower class.

There are many poor white people in the country and the cycle perpetuate itself there too. But with both white and black poor, there is the chance to work one’s way out of being poor. It is not easy, but it has been done.

If I shuffle a non-trick deck of cards and pick four cards at random, is there any guarantee that I will get 1 card of each suit?

Warbler said:

corellian77 said:

Warbler said:

What do you mean by “current injustices that are derived from these things?” How do you wipe out the legacy of slavery?

As for white kids going to private schools, I am not sure what can be done about that. This is America, if you have enough money amd want to send your kids to private school, you can.

I pretty sure that housing segregation is not allowed under the civil rights act. People have the right to live where they want regardless of skin color, assuming they can afford to live in said place.

I think a few people (CatBus, DominicCobb, and suspiciouscoffee) have already done a good job of responding to this, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents. You ask how racism/segregation is still prevalent in American society, and you have twice answered your own question. If the ability to live in “nice neighbourhoods” and attend “good schools” is contingent on having the money to make such things possible, and if certain races generally don’t have access to such money, then this is a form of racism/segregation.

I disagree. We live a capitalistic system. The free market. If you want something nice, you have to earn enough money and buy it. We don’t give mansions away for free.

Now one might argue that anyone, regardless of race, has the opportunity to make enough money to live where they wish and attend whatever school they wish, but if society is set up to keep people in their existing socioeconomic class, and if people in lower socioeconomic classes are generally minorities, therein lies the institutional racism mentioned earlier.

But is that the way society is set up in America? It might very difficult to move up a socioeconomic class, but it is doable. For example, there are all sorts of social problems to help people who can’t afford it, to get into college.

If a child lives in a poor neighbourhood and attends a poor school due to his family not having enough money to do otherwise, then the child himself is likely to grow up and find himself in the same boat. The cycle perpetuates itself, not because any one person is saying, “Don’t live here” and “Go to school there,” but simply because society makes it difficult to escape one’s current class, and due to American history, many racial minorities find themselves in the lower class.

There are many poor white people in the country and the cycle perpetuate itself there too. But with both white and black poor, there is the chance to work one’s way out of being poor. It is not easy, but it has been done.

This is the heart of it all. Black people are especially disadvantaged economically due to decades and decades of racial injustices of all different kinds. It surely is possible to move up, but it is very, very difficult (for many reasons). This is essentially though whole reason why things like affirmative action exist.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

corellian77 said:

Warbler said:

What do you mean by “current injustices that are derived from these things?” How do you wipe out the legacy of slavery?

As for white kids going to private schools, I am not sure what can be done about that. This is America, if you have enough money amd want to send your kids to private school, you can.

I pretty sure that housing segregation is not allowed under the civil rights act. People have the right to live where they want regardless of skin color, assuming they can afford to live in said place.

I think a few people (CatBus, DominicCobb, and suspiciouscoffee) have already done a good job of responding to this, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents. You ask how racism/segregation is still prevalent in American society, and you have twice answered your own question. If the ability to live in “nice neighbourhoods” and attend “good schools” is contingent on having the money to make such things possible, and if certain races generally don’t have access to such money, then this is a form of racism/segregation.

I disagree. We live a capitalistic system. The free market. If you want something nice, you have to earn enough money and buy it. We don’t give mansions away for free.

Now one might argue that anyone, regardless of race, has the opportunity to make enough money to live where they wish and attend whatever school they wish, but if society is set up to keep people in their existing socioeconomic class, and if people in lower socioeconomic classes are generally minorities, therein lies the institutional racism mentioned earlier.

But is that the way society is set up in America? It might very difficult to move up a socioeconomic class, but it is doable. For example, there are all sorts of social problems to help people who can’t afford it, to get into college.

If a child lives in a poor neighbourhood and attends a poor school due to his family not having enough money to do otherwise, then the child himself is likely to grow up and find himself in the same boat. The cycle perpetuates itself, not because any one person is saying, “Don’t live here” and “Go to school there,” but simply because society makes it difficult to escape one’s current class, and due to American history, many racial minorities find themselves in the lower class.

There are many poor white people in the country and the cycle perpetuate itself there too. But with both white and black poor, there is the chance to work one’s way out of being poor. It is not easy, but it has been done.

This is the heart of it all. Black people are especially disadvantaged economically due to decades and decades of racial injustices of all different kinds. It surely is possible to move up, but it is very, very difficult (for many reasons). This is essentially though whole reason why things like affirmative action exist.

You bring up good points here.

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

If you want something nice, you have to earn enough money and buy it. We don’t give mansions away for free.

In our system, you don’t have to earn any money at all to get what you want, due to a thing called inheritance.

Well yeah, people are allowed to decide who gets their stuff when they die. So what? My mom gave me my father’s ring when he died. You trying to say that was wrong? We should have given the ring to a total stranger who was non-white?

We do indeed give away mansions for free. After being born a multi-millionaire, you can spend your life pissing it away like Trump (he’d actually be much richer today if he’d just invested the wealth he had as an infant in a diversified fund), or you can be born a multi-millionaire and build on it like Bill Gates. But would you have done as well had you not had multiple millions of dollars when you were still in diapers?

That is the way a free market works. However, I do see your point when comes to the social-economic effects of slavery and years of jim crow and discrimination. Maybe it is a good reason for things like affirmative action.

CatBus said:

Warbler said:

Well yeah, people are allowed to decide who gets their stuff when they die. So what?

Well, I have lots of opinions on this matter, but the one most topical is this: if you have a time, 50 years ago when redlining was legal, and a time 100 years ago when murder was tolerated and even encouraged in the form of lynching, and 150 years ago when slavery was legal, that is a lot of time to build up a pretty substantial reservoir of unearned, unfair, unjustified advantage. And if you have a system that allows those ill-gotten gains to legally be transferred people living in the present even though the means used to accumulate that wealth is no longer legal… well, you’ve got a problem.

I think it is a bit more complicated than you make it. I think it is wrong to simply label everything that white people have today as ill-gotten. There are all sorts of ways people got what they have and it is not 100% due to slavery, lynching, jim crow, and discrimination. Also remember just because those things existed, does not mean that White people did not have to work hard to get what they have.

There is no single solution to this problem. However, we are living with the consequences of not solving it.

Tell me, have you told your parents not to leave you any of their “ill-gotten” stuff when they die and instead give to people of minority races?

Do you think we should to give all of America back to the Native Americans and move back to Europe?