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Return of the Pug (ROTP) - webpage and screenshots (Released) — Page 16

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Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

But just because it’s mono, does that mean it’s a different mix?

No, it could be (and likely is) just a stereo downmix. However, PSB had alternate dialogue which made it pretty easy to quickly distinguish. Without alternate dialogue and sound effects, you’d really have to listen carefully for mixing differences, which were also present in PSB’s audio. Maybe it’ll be like that–a different mix with no SFX or dialogue differences.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

But just because it’s mono, does that mean it’s a different mix?

No, it could be (and likely is) just a stereo downmix. However, PSB had alternate dialogue which made it pretty easy to quickly distinguish. Without alternate dialogue and sound effects, you’d really have to listen carefully for mixing differences, which were also present in PSB’s audio. Maybe it’ll be like that–a different mix with no SFX or dialogue differences.

Wow, don’t know how I managed to miss that. It probably would be useful then, if possible, to include a laserdisc audio track.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Or if a disreputable ne’er-do-well managed to get access to the audio on your machine, they might be able to tell you if it’s a unique mix.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

I’ve put the .ac3 audio files of the three reels online here:
http://www.hardbat.com/zaudio.zip
I’ll only leave them up for a short time. Those of you who are interested in examining them, let me know (or post here) when you’ve downloaded them so I know I can take them down. The zip file is 174Mb.

Thanks for helping everyone!

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I’m not nearly done with the comparison–it seems to match the 83 stereo mix very well, but here’s an “I can’t tell!” example:

At around 22:38, while Bib Fortuna is delivering his “No bargain” line to Luke, and a little afterward as well, the 83 and 93 mixes both have the clinking sounds of chains. ROTP? Nothing, just dialogue. The reason I’m not sure is that I’m wondering if it’s possible the sounds are so high pitched that they are effectively trimmed out by either the EQ or the limits of the physical media. I’ll listen around for proof of this, but I don’t have a strong enough audio background to say this is so.

So it’s a cautious maybe, that it’s maybe a unique mix. No new dialogue or more major SFX differences so far, and I’m not done yet.

Would love confirmation from another listener.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Any hiss reduction on the audio? Might have confused the high pitched faint sound of chains for hiss.

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Tomorrow I’ll run the 83 stereo mix through something like a 6khz lowpass filter and see if the clinks could have gotten trimmed out by the lack of high end (although I’m not sure where that cutoff should really be–what is it technically, 16mm optical?).

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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According to Google 6 khz is about right.

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Well, I was able to filter out the clinking noises from the 1983 mix with a 2khz lowpass filter, and the resulting muffling of the audio didn’t sound different enough from the ROTP to be unambiguously wrong. A 6khz filter wasn’t enough to filter it out, though. Considering the frequency response of 16mm optical probably tapers off before a 6khz cutoff, it’s all plausibly still a limitation of the medium IMO.

To test this, I think I’ll run the ROTP mix through a 2khz highpass. If it contains audible non-hiss detail above 2khz, then I’m assuming we should have been able to hear the clinking sounds. If it’s all hiss with maybe a few barely audible bits here and there, then this was likely a false alarm.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Hm. That was fast. It appears ROTP has lots of clearly audible detail above 2khz, and it appears IMO that the missing clinking sounds can only be explained away by a near-complete lack of frequency response above 2khz, ergo… different mix!

I think so, at least. Man, I wish I had a better audio background so I could make sweeping statements like that with more confidence.

But I haven’t even listened to the whole thing. Maybe the Emperor will say “I’ll get you, my pretties!” and it’ll make the whole thing much more obvious.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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How widely panned are the chain sounds? Any delays added for a false sense of wide stereo image? Sometimes widely panned sounds can be muffled when mixed down to mono and that combined with the low frequency response may be the culprit.

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I just listened to the original .wav scans, and compared to the ROTJ audio on YouTube at the spot you mention.

The clearest difference by my ears is right at the spot when Jabba pulls back Leia into his lap. On Youtube the chain sound is clear and loud, but on the optical scan there is barely any sound at all.

Possessed is right that it could be an artifact of the mono pulldown. Would need something a bit more obvious. Thanks CatBus, for listening so carefully.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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So in the “No bargain” section, I checked the panning. The initial clinks are indeed panned hard left, nothing at all in the right channel, so the mixdown method could explain those disappearing. However, the clinks immediately after he says “No bargain” are pretty well centered. I’ll listen to the spot Puggo mentioned too, but I’m still inclined to believe it’s a different mix.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Yeah, Puggo’s suggested location (~29:56) is a much clearer, louder, and centered example of this. Someone simply failed to add the clinking chain sounds to the mono mix–it’s a different mix. I’m pretty certain of that now.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Loss of audio on a folddown is more likely to happen if the sound is centered, not if the sound is panned hard. That’s because the centered sound would be in both channels, but could be out of phase. Then when combined it would disappear. A hard-panned sound would not be cancelled, it would just be half as loud. Also would need to know the frequency of the chain sounds… the non-Leia examples are really quiet and high. So I would retain some skepticism until more examples are found.

A smoking gun would be a sound effect in the optical audio that isn’t in the stereo mix.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Yes, that would be the smoking gun. But we do have some (admittedly quiet) hard-panned clinks disappearing, as well as some centered louder clinks. I’m thinking the most plausible explanation for that is now that it’s a different mix. Other explanations are still worth exploring.

Going into this, I was assuming it was a stereo mixdown unless indicated otherwise. Now, I’ve flipped my stance–I’m assuming it’s a unique mix unless indicated otherwise.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Very interesting. *strokes imaginary beard*

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FWIW, I’ve also PM’d hairy_hen in case he can provide an expert opinion. Because so far I’m not thinking we’re likely to get a more audible difference than the “Soon you will learn to appreciate me” scene.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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 (Edited)

Confirmed those chain noises–and only those chain noises–seem to be excluded throughout ROTP, including other scenes where those sounds should be prominent like the Jabba strangulation scene, R2 cutting Leia’s chain, etc. Still haven’t listened to the whole thing.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Can anyone with more patience tell if the music is mixed louder in some spots? I swear a lot of voices and sounds are drowned out of Yub Nub.

So, a new book came out and we learned so much, and it is called, “Anguilosaurus, Killer of the Living”.

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Yeah but the stereo fold down could easily account for that

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Just listened to Yub Nub, and I think the mixdown/less dynamic range/lo-fi quality all conspire to make that harder to distinguish in ROTP that in the 83 stereo mix. I’m not sure the levels are any different except in the sense that with lower dynamics all noises are closer to the same volume, and those vocals sound like they may even be clipping a bit, which certainly can’t be helping matters.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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I’ll have to check when I get home from work. Your current plans sound fine Puggo, but I will admit I love these so much that an even better version would be awesome.

I found the official note about the mono mix when I was recently reading the 1983 making of ROTJ book. In the final schedule it lists a breakdown of every item by day and lists a day for the 70 mm, a day for the Dolby Stereo mix and a day for the mono mix. Given that ESB and Raiders had dedicated monos I’m pretty positive that ROTJ did-even if there are no differences it would still be important because they would have done a dedicated mix for the format most likely instead of just a fold down.

PSBs mono had many differences, most of which later showed up in the 97 SE remix.

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