logo Sign In

When Did The Star Wars Prequels Become Cool? — Page 3

Author
Time

canofhumdingers said:

Possessed said:

I don’t think that they are even very bad. They just aren’t… Good. Sure some of the dialogue is awful, but there’s worse. It’s bad enough to keep them from being good, but not so bad that it makes them terrible. They are terrible if compared to esb, but that’s not saying much not many movies can survive that comparison.

I’ll bite…

I’d argue there are MANY films as good or better than ESB. And I say that as someone who for a very long time held ESB as far and away my favorite film ever (some other films have caught up with it in my favoritism but it’s still easily in my top 5 or better). But there’s a reason it’s rarely included on lists like the AFI’s top 100.

Second, the prequels are BAD movies. On so many levels that I can’t begin to understand people who try to argue they’re not. It doesn’t mean you’re a terrible person or stupid or any awful thing like that for liking them. I love lots of bad movies. I have a real soft spot for 50’s B movies and I unabashedly love Godzilla and other giant monster movies. But I can acknoweledge that many, even most, of those movies are bad movies by any reasonable criteria. I can understand why people criticize them or don’t find them enjoyable. Doesn’t stop me from loving them inspite (or often because) or their badness. But I’d never try to argue Plan 9 From Outer Space is some brilliant piece of high art with numerous layers or depth and meaning. THAT would be preposterously silly. Just like that ring theory nonsense…

If you think the prequels are anywhere near as bad as those then I don’t know what to tell you. I even said I don’t think they’re good, but equating them with plan 9 from outer space or a 50s b movie is crazy.

Also, esb is on quite a few lists, including the one you mentioned.

Author
Time

Plan 9 is not even the worst movie ever made. MST3K taught me that. 😃

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time

I’d rather watch Plan 9 than any of the prequels. At least Plan 9 doesn’t take the mythos of a superior set of films and drag it through the mud.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Valheru_84 said:

joefavs said:

I’ve softened on the prequels ever since the new movies started coming out. When it looked like the series was over forever it seemed like a bigger deal, but now that Star Wars movies are going to continue indefinitely, I’m not bothered by three of them being pretty bad, in much the same way that I don’t get angry about a bad James Bond or Star Trek movie.

I get exactly what you mean, however 3 bad movies in a row that “technically” are at the start of the series is a lot to swallow and forgive in the larger picture that at this stage is still only 7 movies (not including RO since it’s not part of the actual episodic series).

But yes, with the PT no longer being where Star Wars “ended”, it’s not such a sour point anymore and the more good movies made on the other end of the series, the easier it will be to forget and not really care about the whole PT debacle (especially with plenty of fan edits to help make them somewhat watchable).

Okay, I just caught up with this particular thread of yours TV’s Frink, and think I’ll join in the fun… 😉

As joe suggests, I reckon the sting of the ‘Prequel Trilogy’ disappointment has been diluted somewhat for some of us, due to the franchise continuing.

But not by much…because as Val pointed out, the ‘officially’-numbered viewing order of George’s ‘saga’ still involves ‘newbies’ to the franchise having to endure 3 dodgy movies in-a-row before they eventually get to the fun of the ‘Original Trilogy’ pay-off.

BLECH!..but before I go any further, this is a good opportunity to add these particular ‘Prequel’ articles here which gave some food for thought at the time -

www.io9.gizmodo.com/star-wars-the-phantom-menace-doesnt-really-get-what-it-1742188503

www.io9.gizmodo.com/attack-of-the-clones-is-a-star-wars-wish-fulfillment-ch-1743553858

www.io9.gizmodo.com/sure-revenge-of-the-sith-is-the-best-star-wars-prequel-1744646183

…and in the interests of ‘balance’, there’s this one too (although I personally don’t agree with it all) - www.observationdeck.kinja.com/5-things-the-star-wars-prequels-did-right-1624100988

Of course, for some of us there’s the option of watching these movies in a slightly different form to how George envisaged things…and this article covers a lot of the points that various re-edits have improved on over the years - www.io9.gizmodo.com/include-these-anti-cheese-star-wars-prequels-while-you-1747781701

…and this one describes the various ways these movies can be re-ordered too - www.lifehacker.com/how-to-properly-catch-up-on-all-the-star-wars-movies-be-1748097695

While I’ll NEVER regard George’s 3 ‘Prequels’ as being ‘cool’ whatsoever, there’s enough moments throughout them to hold my interest - but the ONLY way I would wish to re-watch them one-after-the-other in a ‘saga’ viewing order these days…is by merely including heavily-edited versions of each prequel set IN-BETWEEN the RETURN OF THE JEDI and THE FORCE AWAKENS movies, as a trilogy-long ‘flashback’ to earlier events…so that they DON’T adversely affect any of the great character introductions of the ‘Original Trilogy’ - and this 3-movies-long, ‘flashback’ interlude has the additonal advantage of allowing a certain diversion of time to go by after watching RETURN OF THE JEDI, which helps smooth the ‘jump-forwards-in-time’ when resuming with the much-OLDER characters in THE FORCE AWAKENS, I find.

So my own ideal viewing order of the STAR WARS ‘saga’ will ALWAYS be the ‘release order’ of Episodes 4 5 6 - 1 2 3 - 7 8 9, no-matter-what…but due to the power of the ‘Death Star’ being built-up so effectively in ROGUE ONE, I’m now content to have a pre-‘scrolled’, re-edited version of that movie kick off the whole shebang for me. 😃

Author
Time

Possessed said:

canofhumdingers said:

Possessed said:

I don’t think that they are even very bad. They just aren’t… Good. Sure some of the dialogue is awful, but there’s worse. It’s bad enough to keep them from being good, but not so bad that it makes them terrible. They are terrible if compared to esb, but that’s not saying much not many movies can survive that comparison.

I’ll bite…

I’d argue there are MANY films as good or better than ESB. And I say that as someone who for a very long time held ESB as far and away my favorite film ever (some other films have caught up with it in my favoritism but it’s still easily in my top 5 or better). But there’s a reason it’s rarely included on lists like the AFI’s top 100.

Second, the prequels are BAD movies. On so many levels that I can’t begin to understand people who try to argue they’re not. It doesn’t mean you’re a terrible person or stupid or any awful thing like that for liking them. I love lots of bad movies. I have a real soft spot for 50’s B movies and I unabashedly love Godzilla and other giant monster movies. But I can acknoweledge that many, even most, of those movies are bad movies by any reasonable criteria. I can understand why people criticize them or don’t find them enjoyable. Doesn’t stop me from loving them inspite (or often because) or their badness. But I’d never try to argue Plan 9 From Outer Space is some brilliant piece of high art with numerous layers or depth and meaning. THAT would be preposterously silly. Just like that ring theory nonsense…

If you think the prequels are anywhere near as bad as those then I don’t know what to tell you. I even said I don’t think they’re good, but equating them with plan 9 from outer space or a 50s b movie is crazy.

Also, esb is on quite a few lists, including the one you mentioned.

ESB is not on either iteration of AFI’s top 100.

And yes, the prequels are every bit as bad as some 50’s B movies (not to mention some b movies are actually quite good). Perhaps Plan 9 is a stretch, but I was just using it as an example to illustrate my point. But while the prequels may have had higher budgets and better production values (to an extent), the writing, dialogue, wooden acting, bad direction, some AWFUL special effects shots, complete disregard for continuity within the series, etc are all every bit as bad as crappy B movie from the drive-in era.

Author
Time

Lol not even close. As I’ve said I don’t particularly like them, but I’m not so deluded as to think they are b movies just because they aren’t as good as the originals, or even particularly good in general.

Although you are right about esb not being on the list. I was confusing it with star wars, owhich for the sake of this argument doesn’t mean dick.

But this isn’t the “just *how* disappointing were the prequels” thread so we probably should stop this conversation, and it’s not really worth having anywhere else either.

Author
Time

@possessed

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Like I said, I’m a big fan of 50’s b movies and I’ve watched a ton of them. And I stand by my statement about the prequels being just as bad.

Now, to swing this back around on topic, that appreciation for old b movies helps me understand why some people actually like the prequels. While I personally find them pretty much insufferable, a driving force for that is how they failed to mesh well (visually, continuity-wise, etc.) with the films that came decades before that I had grown up with. But for someone who didn’t have that history - especially a young kid - I can see why they might not feel the way I do.

I can also totally empathize with someone who really loves a film or series that the world at large deems crappy. I can also empathize with people who like the prequels based almost entirely on childhood nostalgia. As I mentioned, I love me some Godzilla. And there are a couple of pretty awful Godzilla movies that I still thoroughly enjoy based almost entirely on the nostalgia from watching them as a kid.

So, while I personally don’t like them, and don’t agree with those who sing their praises for whatever reason, I CAN understand why there seems to be a growing number of prequel fans, or people who don’t completely dismiss them the way many of us here do.

Author
Time

I can understand hate watching them. Or watching ridiculous-ized versions of them. That’s about it. I can’t even watch serious fanedits of them anymore, it’s still too painful.

Author
Time

Wazzles said:

lovelikewinter said:

The pesky whipper-snappers who grew up on crap like Twilight and Harry Potter moved into other fandoms. Since they are easy to please the creators have little incentive to make good stuff when they can half ass any old garbage and make the bucks. They ruined Doctor Who and they tried to ruin Star Wars.

What the hell do you have against Harry Potter? Also, I have a Chrome plugin that replaces the word “millenial” with “pesky whipper-snappers”, so ignore the edit.

I like the books and I think that Rowling got so many kids excited about reading is a great thing. Its the movies I can’t stand and that Hot Topic had turned into nothing but Harry Potter central again. The last movie I saw, Goblet of Fire?, was only to on a date with a hot black dude.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DuracellEnergizer said:

I’d rather watch Plan 9 than any of the prequels. At least Plan 9 doesn’t take the mythos of a superior set of films and drag it through the mud.

So you understand what happended to the EU.

Author
Time

canofhumdingers said:

Possessed said:

I don’t think that they are even very bad. They just aren’t… Good. Sure some of the dialogue is awful, but there’s worse. It’s bad enough to keep them from being good, but not so bad that it makes them terrible. They are terrible if compared to esb, but that’s not saying much not many movies can survive that comparison.

I’ll bite…

I’d argue there are MANY films as good or better than ESB. And I say that as someone who for a very long time held ESB as far and away my favorite film ever (some other films have caught up with it in my favoritism but it’s still easily in my top 5 or better). But there’s a reason it’s rarely included on lists like the AFI’s top 100.

Second, the prequels are BAD movies. On so many levels that I can’t begin to understand people who try to argue they’re not. It doesn’t mean you’re a terrible person or stupid or any awful thing like that for liking them. I love lots of bad movies. I have a real soft spot for 50’s B movies and I unabashedly love Godzilla and other giant monster movies. But I can acknoweledge that many, even most, of those movies are bad movies by any reasonable criteria. I can understand why people criticize them or don’t find them enjoyable. Doesn’t stop me from loving them inspite (or often because) or their badness. But I’d never try to argue Plan 9 From Outer Space is some brilliant piece of high art with numerous layers or depth and meaning. THAT would be preposterously silly. Just like that ring theory nonsense…

I am one of those people who will defend the ring theory as possibly not nonsense, for the simple reason that forcing a trilogy to conform to an antiquated storytelling form is precisely the sort of thing that George would do. The ring theory doesn’t make the prequels any better as movies per say, it merely provides a method of interpreting the creative decisions that went into those trainwrecks. Anyone who puts a Yin Yang into a cloudbank is clearly trying to say something deeper than 'there were these Clone Wars, see…'
Yin Yang
All that said, the fascinating thing about the ring theory subtext is how this deeper understanding is entirely undercut by the lack of competence on display in the text of the film, so it’s almost impossible to genuinely appreciate this subtext. And it is fascinating, because I don’t know of another series of films that achieves this balance of textual incompetence and subtextual thoughtfulness. Most other films that try this just come across as pretentious.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Even if someone did believe the ring theory 100% it’s not in any way a factor in what makes a movie good. It only exists because some lunatic was trying to raise up the PT to a higher place when in reality it will always be in the sewer.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Lest we forget…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJG50U2YZhE

and then there were these examples too…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3XBjE3b228

and after all that, I reckon that JeremyMWest-Esquire ‘lost the will to live’ when it came to doing a compilation of his ROTS removals as well!

Somewhere along the way, George confused a ‘child-like’ quality with a ‘childish’ one for his prequels.

‘Cool’…my ass. 😉

Author
Time

Contrarianism, no matter how contrived, is good for getting those sweet sweet clicks. That’s completely it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

They try to use the Ring Theory then bitch that TFA was a rehash in the same breath.

It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher

Author
Time

I never found the prequels to be “cool”. A crushing disappointment, imo. The only positive (to me) that came from the PHANTOM MENACE, was that it replaced RETURN OF THE JEDI as being the most disappointing chapter - up until that time.

Author
Time

lovelikewinter said:
try to use the Ring Theory then bitch that TFA was a rehash in the same breath.

I don’t think my brain operates on that level

Author
Time
 (Edited)

The Galaxy of Star Wars fandom had a collective moment of weakness around the time TFA came out. I think people were just glad there was a film coming out that everyone was hoping would wipe the bitter taste of the PT from thair collective pallets. And somehow in the heady concoction of Star Wars revival combined with the Holiday season, fans managed to forgive the PT; especially those who were kids at the time the PT were released.

But anyone who believe the PT were, in retrospect, good are fooling themselves.

Author
Time

I love movies. I love movies of all sorts. Books too. Books can be so much better. Can be. Often they aren’t. I have read my share of Star Wars books. I read the Thrawn trilogy and man of the other early EU books. What I’ve found is that it doesn’t matter if they win awards or not, some stories are awesome, some are terrible. I’ve encountered some terrible stories and when you compare the PT to them, the PT aren’t terrible. What I see on this site is a lot of people who don’t like the choices GL made. They see some of the flaws as fatal when in the scheme of things such flaws are pretty common in movies. Books too. The PT are not great by any means, but that does not mean that they didn’t manage to capture the magic of Star Wars for a particular generation. This site is devoted to the OOT. We tend to ignore some of the stupidness of them. It is there, just to a smaller degree. GL had plenty of help on the OT and didn’t get much on the PT. I see that as their fatal flaw. So many of the complaints could have been dealt with had he hired a good screenwriter to fix his scripts. He should have hired Carrie Fisher.

So for some of us, the OOT remains a gold standard. We are not crazy because the original 77 film is on the AFI top 100 list and has been since it was created. The PT can never equal that in pure cinematic quality, but they can end up being some people’s introduction to Star Wars and in many ways they have a similar, but unique magic, that is no less Star Wars for those who see it.

I personally think that GL was going for a 30’s vibe to the films. The art deco of the Corucsant. The truncated love story in what is basically an action movie. And I think he wanted both Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christiansen to channel James Earl Jones and his delivery. Sounds great with that booming voice. Sounds horrible coming from the others. Just listen to how David Prowse sounded deliving those same lines. Jar Jar was a mistake. Too comic and a needless accent. Though I loved Boss Nass (a slight addiction to Brian Blessed and anything he does). In the end the films failed to live up to what OT fans expected of them. As I look at them further, I see the biggest failing in AOTC. That should have been the film where we see the great bond between Obi-wan and Anakin. There is something there, but you don’t get that “good friend” vibe. I think that destroys the entire trilogy, but I think it can be fixed because most of it comes from lines that can be cut.

So I think the PT are indeed cool to one group of people. They have that right. We don’t have to agree with them, but it helps if we can step back from our own biases and see what they are talking about. I’ve watched a lot of 30’s films. Some are great, some not so much. I think GL hit his goal, but he failed to bring it up to the level of the good ones. Really it was a bad decade for films because the studios made so many B pictures and GL probably saw way too many B pictures. That is what the story of the PT feels like to me. A B picture compared to the A pictures of the OOT. Some people like those old B pictures.

Author
Time

luckydube56 said:

But anyone who believe the PT were, in retrospect, good are fooling themselves.

“Anyone who has a different opinion than me is wrong.”

Author
Time

The PT being a well-made trilogy is not an opinion, it’s an objective falsehood.