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Ranking the Batman films — Page 15

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darthrush said:

moviefreakedmind said:

My problems with Man of Steel (didn’t see BvS) had nothing to do with minute plot issues. It really didn’t even have to do with plot issues; I just couldn’t stand it because it was loud, long, and obnoxious.

You mean atrocious, disgusting and hideous, right?

WYSHS

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Just so we’re on the same page here: I didn’t like BvS either.

I just don’t get the idolization the Christopher Nolan Batman movies get when they’re only passable.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Mavimao said:

Just so we’re on the same page here: I didn’t like BvS either.

I just don’t get the idolization the Christopher Nolan Batman movies get when they’re only passable.

I really liked the Dark Knight and most of Batman Begins because they felt a lot more like crime dramas than superhero movies.

The Person in Question

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I love the Dark Knight simply because of how strong the villains were and how well Alfred was portrayed. The Bruce Wayne scenes on the other hand are all really bland and some of the practical action isn’t very exciting. Hans Zimmer’s music also doesn’t help anything. The reason TDK was better than the other two was because of how strong the villains were in comparison but they all still suffer from many of the same problems.

Prequel Fan-Edit thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Yet-another-series-of-prequel-edits/id/17329

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Begins and TDK are great crime dramas. TDKR is a pretty cool popcorn disaster flick, but it’s too long.

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moviefreakedmind said:

Mavimao said:

Just so we’re on the same page here: I didn’t like BvS either.

I just don’t get the idolization the Christopher Nolan Batman movies get when they’re only passable.

I really liked the Dark Knight and most of Batman Begins because they felt a lot more like crime dramas than superhero movies.

I can see why some people may not like that but I’m all for it. I’d rather have a superhero movie that’s actually well written than to have something that’s closer to the comics (Burton films) but is meh in nearly every way imaginable. Jack’s performance as the Joker excluded obviously.

Smithers said:

The Bruce Wayne scenes on the other hand are all really bland and some of the practical action isn’t very exciting.

I disagree. I found his scenes with Alfred and Lucious to be both funny and heart warming. Especially the scenes in which Alfred is telling him not to exceed his limits and how he dealt with the thief. I also like how him, Gordon and Harvey all have the same arc (until Harvey’s fall of course) as they all have to do things that is against their moral compass for the greater good. And that is what the film really is about; not Batman vs Joker because reasons. And speaking of reason why The Joker is there I love that Batman’s tenacity and vigor is the reason why the Joker is there in the first place and of course that leads to Rachel’s death. I’m kind of rambling but I find all of this stuff really compelling.

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suspiciouscoffee said:

Begins and TDK are great crime dramas. TDKR is a pretty cool popcorn disaster flick, but it’s too long.

That’s pretty much how I’d sum up my feelings on all three of them.

EDIT: I also agree with Haseo that the Bruce Wayne scenes in TDK were good as well.

The Person in Question

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With non-atrocious versions of the Batsuit, Batvoice, and Batmobile … maybe.

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Rewatched The Dark Knight again. There was a time that I thought the film was damn near perfect, but, a few years on, especially after reading stuff like captainsolo’s excellent The Dark Knight review on Hi-Fi Celluloid, the flaws really do show. I still stand by The Dark Knight as a good film, if heavy-handed and bloated with no regard to pacing, but it’s portrayal of Batman is pretty rubbish.

I must say that the crucial problem I find with Nolan’s later two films, perhaps due to his brother Jonathan’s hand, is an emphasis on action and realism over motivation or psychological complexity (more the forte of Burton, particularly in Returns, where it bleeds overtly into the set design).

Observe the trilogy’s (over)fixation on Batman’s rule to not kill. It’s as if Batman can only be distinguished from his rogues (very few of whom are seen in the trilogy) if there exists a black-and-white quantifiable action (specifically, the inaction of taking a life). In the worldview of the movies, only actions seem to matter, with Batman’s psychological complexity (the altruism of his quest, the fact that it stems from survivor’s guilt) being ultimately disregarded as irrelevant.

And, this is why, Batman, as a character, seems to be largely forgettable in the latter two Nolan films. He is just an interchangeable vigilante, who happens to have a code; there’s no more bearing on the inciting incident that formed that code or how that continues to affect him to this day. This is unfortunate, as Batman has always been made most interesting by his psychology.

I’d go so far as to say, and this may be controversial with some folks: my favorite live-action portrayal of Batman is Ben Affleck! BVS, a movie which I am currently furiously fan-editing, is such a bizarre movie to me because it has the worst cinematic rendition of Superman but the best (IMHO) rendition of Batman.

While I do wish that Batman didn’t kill, a fact mitigated in my fanedit among others (shameless plug), the rest of Ben Affleck’s portrayal is so spot on. Batman’s a cynical ass with a sense of gallows humor, who 1) is actively haunted by the death of his parents, in dialogue and performance; 2) does actually detective-y things; and 3) will NEVER EVER give up in his quest, even if it means confronting a nigh-invincible alien! This Batman is enhanced by the baggage of the loss of a sidekick.

Though Michael Keaton and Val Kilmer acquitted themselves far more admirably than Bale, they never really completely felt like comic book Batman in the way that the current incarnation does. Both those two incarnations, I might add, also had the problem of wantonly killing people.

BVS was by no means a good movie, but, as Conroy has likely voiced the Caped Crusader for the final time with The Killing Joke, the future of live-action Batman has never looked brighter. I have a feeling that Ben Affleck will do remarkably in his solo outing, judging by his apparent understanding of the character; I credit him far more than I do Snyder, noting that out of the main three heroes in BVS, only Batman really leaped off the page to the silver screen to me.

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I still think that the 1989 bat man with Keaton was the best it’s gonna get… I love that film. Jack was a great joker too.

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The Aluminum Falcon said:

I must say that the crucial problem I find with Nolan’s later two films, perhaps due to his brother Jonathan’s hand, is an emphasis on action and realism over motivation or psychological complexity (more the forte of Burton, particularly in Returns, where it bleeds overtly into the set design).

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I’ve seen Batman Begins so many times, I decided to skip it this time, so I watch The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises for the first time in a few years. I have to say, I still really enjoy Batman Begins best (from memory, obviously), but I enjoy Rises next. It seems the majority’s favorite of the trilogy has officially been sealed as my least favorite, whereas in the past it was a tossup between TDK and TDKR. The Joker’s motivations are so confusing, his “dog chasing cars” bit contrasting so completely with his amazing clairvoyance of how to preemptively defeat the good guys, and the lack of focus on Bruce/Batman all disappoint me.

I feel like every few years I ramble off the same points on this forum. I’m sure I’ve said this elsewhere here. Anyway, Joker is hired to kill Batman, threatens to kill someone every day till Batman reveals himself, then tells Batman he doesn’t want to kill him (laughing at the very notion, because Batman completes him) and goes to great length to keep Batman’s identity hidden (and then in the end nearly kills him after all!). He says he doesn’t plan, he just does things, but he redirects a convoy to a vulnerable underground road with the necessary vehicles and weapons to defeat the convoy, knows when SWAT truck carrying Dent will return to the surface, and even has masked men ready with cables to take down a police chopper. He manages to get caught (and apparently wanted to), just so he could blow up the police station and capture Lau against all odds of this plan working out so well. He and his henchman are able to place explosives in closely monitored areas (hospitals are extremely closely-monitored facilities, as healthcare is one of the most regulated professions in the world). Yet, in spite of all this amazing planning, he convinces the brilliant DA that it was all just an impulse. Then there’s the stupidity in that he convinces the mob to pay him half their savings in cash so he can kill Batman, then when he gets paid for not killing Batman, he torches the cash, and all the mobsters’ flunkies decide to join him!

I’m sorry, but the logic to this movie was sorely lacking, and it really disappoints me. Yes, Ledger portrayed a great Joker, and Eckhart played a great Two Face, but that doesn’t excuse such mammoth lapses in logic. Its strongest point is its ending, where Batman is willing to take the fall for Harvey, proving that sometimes a lie is more valuable than the truth. It’s filled with numerous interesting moral dilemmas leading up to that ending, but still the plot just irritates me on a certain level.

TDKR is much more logical, even if there are certain points where suspension of disbelief is greater than in previous installments. Bane’s motives are clearer, and the movie is intense throughout. It’s definitely a bit longer than necessary, but overall I still love the movie.

And Batman Begins still remains my favorite, especially because the primary focus is on the hero and his journey to the point he is at.

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I was so let down by TDK that I didn’t even bother watching TDKR.

Begins was decent though.

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Hmm. That’s interesting. May I ask what you did not like about TDK?

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I hated Batman. I hated Gordon. Joker was fine but everyone went crazy over him only because Ledger died. I barely remember the other characters (granted I have seen it exactly once and that was eight years ago, but still). And _ender raises good points as well.

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TV’s Frink said:

I was so let down by TDK that I didn’t even bother watching TDKR.

Begins was decent though.

Me too. I’m not much of a Batman fan, but I really found TDK to be completely overrated. Ledger was good, but the things Ender just pointed out (inconsistent writing, confusing motivation, “Dogs chasing cars”) really crippled not only the character, but the whole film for me.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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I mean, you guys are completely wrong but whatever.

I will say though the suggesting that people only went crazy over Ledger’s performance because he died is BS of a magnitude I cannot abide.

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DominicCobb said:

I will say though the suggesting that people only went crazy over Ledger’s performance because he died is BS of a magnitude I cannot abide.

It was a good performance.

People also overrated it. The reasons for that may be varied but I believe it mostly happened because he died, and if he hadn’t we wouldn’t have heard nearly as much about how great it was.

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Also updated, now with more Lego

DominicCobb said:

The Dark Knight - A+
The Dark Knight Rises - A
Batman Begins - A-
Batman: Mask of the Phantasm - A-
The Lego Batman Movie - B+
Batman Returns - B
Batman - C+
Batman Forever - C-
Batman and Robin - F
Batman v Superman - F

I still haven’t seen the Adam West film in it’s entirety.

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TV’s Frink said:

DominicCobb said:

I will say though the suggesting that people only went crazy over Ledger’s performance because he died is BS of a magnitude I cannot abide.

It was a good performance.

People also overrated it. The reasons for that may be varied but I believe it mostly happened because he died, and if he hadn’t we wouldn’t have heard nearly as much about how great it was.

I think people rated it just fine, you just didn’t like it as much.

There was certainly some degree of attention to it because of his death, but if it wasn’t great, people wouldn’t have cared. Actors release movies posthumously all the time and people almost routinely never care.

At the time it might have been hard to tell because emotions were still high, but it’s now been almost 9 years since and the performance is still widely considered the best ever given in a comic book film. I think it’s pretty clear at this point the quality of it has little to do with the outside circumstances.

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I say this, not as a challenge, but as a genuine curiosity, but why do the things I mentioned not bother you? I love how you defend TFA, and it’s given me a greater appreciation of a movie that did let me down a bit. I’d love to read a good defense of TDK. Those confusing character motivations go beyond simple suspension of disbelief, and I can’t just buy the “Joker is crazy, so of course his plans don’t make sense” argument.

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darth_ender said:

I say this, not as a challenge, but as a genuine curiosity, but why do the things I mentioned not bother you? I love how you defend TFA, and it’s given me a greater appreciation of a movie that did let me down a bit. I’d love to read a good defense of TDK. Those confusing character motivations go beyond simple suspension of disbelief, and I can’t just buy the “Joker is crazy, so of course his plans don’t make sense” argument.

I tend to put a moratorium of voraciously defending movies after a bit. You might remember I was a pretty ardent defender of TDKR here when it came out, but after awhile I’d said everything that I could say and it was time to let the disses roll off. I’m already starting to lean off TFA defending. You can only argue the same things over and over so many times.

A lot of the things you mention are nitpicks which I am rarely bothered by in general. The perceived disconnect between Joker’s words and his actions are exactly that. Joker’s a liar. In the “dog chasing cars” moment, when Dent’s at his most vulnerable, the Joker’s manipulating him into doing what he wants. The Joker is a psychotic agent of chaos who wants to break down and expose the demented psychologies of everyone in Gotham and yeah, he’s crazy, but he’s definitely a schemer too.

A lot of ink has been spilt about the film and about the Joker specifically over the years, people talking a lot more about his motivations and the underlying philosophies of the film. Which is one of the reasons I don’t feel the need to spend time defending it - better writers than me already have.

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TV’s Frink said:

I hated Batman. I hated Gordon. Joker was fine but everyone went crazy over him only because Ledger died. I barely remember the other characters (granted I have seen it exactly once and that was eight years ago, but still). And _ender raises good points as well.

Gary Oldman was probably my favorite Gordon so far, but I can dig it. I also thought that the film’s mytique was in a way boosted by Ledger’s untimely death, as morbid as that is.

As far as _ender’s points, they all make perfect sense. I guess for me, that characterization of the Joker kind of fit his personality found in the comics, so it wasn’t as much of a turn off.

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My rankings:

  1. Batman Mask of the Phantasm
  2. Batman: The Movie (1966)
  3. Batman (1989)
  4. Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
  5. The Dark Knight
  6. Batman Under the Red Hood
  7. Batman Begins
  8. Batman Returns
  9. Batman Forever
  10. The Dark Knight Rises
    11-100. Random Direct-to-Video schlock
  11. Batman & Robin

Any other significant releases I haven’t seen. I’m passing entirely on DC’s new movie series, as you can see I like some camp in my movies. But it has to be good.

The forum software is putting Batman & Robin at 11 when I wrote 101. Stop interfering with my posts.