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Star Wars could have been a modern day Iliad.
Star Wars could have been a modern day Iliad. :: 1 < 3 > 6
twooffour
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Quackula said:
For what it's worth (and I've observed that I'm not alone here in thinking this), TPM was the most effective of the prequel films, and was the only one that felt at all "Star Wars-y" to me.
Unfortunately it was also the most pointless of the 3 films.
Parts of TPM, I agree. Although I'd probably say that, under this premise, ROTS feels "most starwarsy" to me, especially the latter half of it ;)
What is "Star Warsy", though? Is it the inescapable threat of death, pain and evil in grim, dark smoky environments hovering over bottomless pits? Is it wisecracking, bickering swashbuckler leads "indy ploying" their way through epic space adventures? the cheesy, but charmy dialogue? how about the wacky, strange robot / alien things doing strange, wacky slapstick stuff (although I must stress most of this kind of humor in the OT came from the resmblance to real life equivalents - fat robots getting tortured, loaded tired aliens sitting in a bar, etc.)?
Not sure if there's a thing like "starwarsy", or whether it's a quality worth mentioning at all - I guess it all comes down to the fact that the OT was a series of really good, charming and fun action/adventure films, and the PT (mostly) failed to imitate that by essentially pressing on the same kinda pedals.
twooffour
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bkev said:
Frevious, I didn't call you a troll... I think. I meant to say you're the first non-troll I'd ever put on ignore.
No one cares whether you ig- ... okay, I'll stop.
Quackula
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I couldn't tell you what "Star Warsy" is, just speaking from my gut.
It probably helps that Jar Jar and Jake Lloyd didn't annoy me much, personally. Mind you, being the best / most effective / most "star warsy" of the prequels doesn't really say much.
TV's Frink
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Ointment FlyWhatsMyName said:
Let's not beat GeneralFrevious with a stick. He's entitled to his own opinion. Besides, i don't think anybody wants to get booted off this web site.
The stick has nothing to do with his opinion. It's for his broken-recordness in expressing it.
Same reason skyjedi occasionally gets the stick.
generalfrevious
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I am ready for the trials!twooffour said:
generalfrevious said:
If the shoe fits...
What if Homer made a prequel to the Iliad and the Odyssey that was just as bad as the PT? Those two works would never have become the classics of western civilization as they are now. To be honest, at first I didn't even hate the prequels; but then I found out they were terrible movies from other people. Before that I honestly believed that these were as good as the OT. But I guess I was stupid (I hate to say this, but it took me years to realize that TPM was a bad movie). Six years after the PT and we have gone from a great film trilogy to a six-film franchise that may not even be half-good. Its now painful to watch these films, knowing what could have happened, GL took the route that was a hundred times worse than our worst fears. SW is dead, man.
I'll be satisfied if one person agrees with me on that statement.
May I ask you WHY you thought TPM was a good movie? Just curious. I mean, did you enjoy it, or aspects of it, did you have reasons to think that way?
I was naive, and thought any SW movie was going to be inherently good. I saw the OT for the first time two years prior, and was surprised that another SW movie was out. Unfortunately, my taste in movies wasn't very good at the time (no access to imdb), so I thought the lightsaber scenes between Darth Maul and Qui-gon/Obi-wan was awesome. Now to be fair I never liked Jar-Jar and always kept thinking what Darth Vader would sound like speaking Jake Lloyd's lines. At the bottom, I lived under a rock and didn't know people hated it and felt it was a letdown. Now I can't bear to watch it like the rest of the PT.
Sounding like a broken record since May 2006.
haljordan28
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The Phantom menace is really the only PT film I can tolerate watching and that is only because of qui-gon and darth maul. Qui-gon was a perfect jedi knight and darth maul made a good sith. I thought the saber scene at the end was ok but it was too flashy and ninja like for my taste. the scene on tattoine when maul and qui-gon fight is very OT like in the way they are dueling. Those are the only aspects of the film I enjoy. Episode 2 turns my stomach in every way possible and episode 3 just leaves me shaking my head and asking why 3 films was attempted to be forced into 2 and a half hrs and watching palpatine cackle and hearing vader scream NOOO really makes me want to drink a batch of poison. Liam neesons performance is the only thing note worthy out of all 3 pt films. In my opinion anyways. I enjoyed the last starfighter and the beastmaster more than I enjoyed the PT films.
generalfrevious
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I am ready for the trials!At least I realized that AOTC and ROTS were awful right away.
Sounding like a broken record since May 2006.
WhatsMyName
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haljordan28 said:
The Phantom menace is really the only PT film I can tolerate watching and that is only because of qui-gon and darth maul. Qui-gon was a perfect jedi knight and darth maul made a good sith. I thought the saber scene at the end was ok but it was too flashy and ninja like for my taste. the scene on tattoine when maul and qui-gon fight is very OT like in the way they are dueling. Those are the only aspects of the film I enjoy. Episode 2 turns my stomach in every way possible and episode 3 just leaves me shaking my head and asking why 3 films was attempted to be forced into 2 and a half hrs and watching palpatine cackle and hearing vader scream NOOO really makes me want to drink a batch of poison. Liam neesons performance is the only thing note worthy out of all 3 pt films. In my opinion anyways. I enjoyed the last starfighter and the beastmaster more than I enjoyed the PT films.
I felt the TPM Lightsaber duel was prlly the best out of all he movies. It seemed more intense and, oh what's the right word? Seasoned i guess. Stupid word. Bottom line that was the best LightSaber battle out of all of them.
What makes "Star Warsy"? Having the same feeling you had when you first watched the OT IMO.
The indy wise cracks for the PT i think were transfered over to Anakin and Obi-Wan
Ziggy Stardust
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haljordan28 said:
Qui-gon was a perfect jedi knight and darth maul made a good sith.
Qui-Gon is a boring character responsible for the destruction of the Republic.
Maul was boring and had no character at all.
quadrennia.tumblr.com
CP3S said:
You will not. None of us will, except for a very old and dying Ziggy Stardust who will watch it through teary eyes as he remembers us all.
pittrek said:
I seriously hope I will live enough to see the original Star Wars trilogy in this quality
WhatsMyName
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i disagree. Maul was badass! He wasn't whiny like Vader. This guy was pure evil and power driven.
Qui-Gon was good, because he was unique from the other Jedi. He was his own character and really made me want to see more of him in the movies.
EyeShotFirst
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Return to Form, or Forum in this case!!WhatsMyName said:
Qui-Gon was good, because he was unique from the other Jedi. He was his own character and really made me want to see more of him in the movies.
Qui Gon was interesting only because Liam Nesson is interesting.
Other than that, Qui Gon is a card board cut-out of a character we are supposed to relate to and understand, but he ends up falling flat with just a simple gust (because that's what card board cut-outs do).
That's the big problem with TPM, I just can't really care about what's going on. I generally watch it for the pod race, the duel, and the shear fact that it is visually interesting.
It feels like George is writing for the effect instead of the affect. You could easily say the same thing about A New Hope, but those effects had a good reason to be there, they drove the story forward.
Star Wars was true story telling. It was a futuristic telling of saving the princess who is stuck in the evil fortress.
I don't know if George came up with the line or borrowed it from another director who really knew what they were talking about, but years before the prequels, "A Special effect is a tool, a means of telling a story. A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing" was a line that stayed instilled in my mind.
It seems like pure contradiction when you watch the prequels after hearing him say that.
There was just a magic about the original films. Down in my parents basement laying on the carpet watching those VHS's in my PJ's while the other kids were watching Sesame Street or Gumby, it was my heaven. Watching the asteroid chase in empire, or the death star duel in return. I miss it.
"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won't last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you'll be able to project it on a 20' by 40' screen with perfect quality. I think it's the director's prerogative, not the studio's to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas
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Quackula
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EyeShotFirst said:
WhatsMyName said:
Qui-Gon was good, because he was unique from the other Jedi. He was his own character and really made me want to see more of him in the movies.
Qui Gon was interesting only because Liam Nesson is interesting.
That's a really excellent way of putting it.
twooffour
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Quackula said:
EyeShotFirst said:
WhatsMyName said:
Qui-Gon was good, because he was unique from the other Jedi. He was his own character and really made me want to see more of him in the movies.
Qui Gon was interesting only because Liam Nesson is interesting.
That's a really excellent way of putting it.
And he was hardly any more interesting than Obi-Wan in the later two films. Why? Because Ewan McGregor is also interesting.
The fact that Qui-Gon had a different opinion from the other Jedi made him only slightly more interesting - it's not a mandatory criterion for a good mentor character, and it wasn't conveyed interestingly in TPM.
twooffour
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I notice somewhat of a "stopped record" effect here in this thread... hey, wasn't it about how old Star Wars was the "modern day literary classic" and how the new films are in danger of ruining that awesome reputation for future generations?
Shouldn't this thread be all about, dunno, discussions about test of time and how quality sips its way through the masses, or whatever? Why is it that 80% of all posts here are little more than good ol' "the characters are boring; overrealiance on special effects! old lucas had wiser things to say, he really should've let other people help him directing..." prequel bashing? Hasn't this stuff been said often enough already?
Smells the Skyjedi Syndrom to me... but please, do go on :D
TV's Frink
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Ointment FlyWelcome to ot.com.
haljordan28
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WhatsMyName said:
i disagree. Maul was badass! He wasn't whiny like Vader. This guy was pure evil and power driven.
Qui-Gon was good, because he was unique from the other Jedi. He was his own character and really made me want to see more of him in the movies.
When was darth vader ever whiney?
Unless you mean PT vader and if so that is just a testament to how those PT films screwed with star wars legeacy. It has made people view vader as whiney. ugh!
Quackula
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TV's Frink said:
Welcome to ot.com.
More like 'Welcome to internet forums'
or...
wait fuck ignore this post
twooffour
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TV's Frink said:
Welcome to ot.com.
Heh...
Just something I noticed :)
TheBoost
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Better a bad bomb than a bombadWhatsMyName said:
i disagree. Maul was badass! He wasn't whiny like Vader. This guy was pure evil and power driven.
Darth Maul was nothing.
He's quiet. He looked cool. End of line.
He had no character of note. He has no personality. He did not have 'potential' he was not a 'wasted oppurtunity'
He's hardly a character. He's a plot device. Same with Boba Fett. Same with Greivous in the Clone Wars flash-cartoons (and everyone loved him too).
Any of them could have been replaced with any other character with a cool design who said nothing. Darth Maul or Boba could have been repalced wholesale with The Terminator, a Predator, the clockwork Nazi from Hellboy, Jason Vorhees, or Rinzler from Tron 2.
And these aren't FAULTS. But a plot device can't be compared to a character. Vader, even in ANH, had more personality, backstory, and story arc. Maul has none of these things, and isn't intended to.
WhatsMyName
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First off, don't put down the Fett man. He's one of the best characters in the OT.
Vader was whiny in ROTS. That just killed it for me when he did the line. "NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
No sith in the movies can amount up to Darth Maul. I don't see how you can deny that he has potential.
Liam Nesson did make Qui-Gon cool. I still think it would've been cool to see more of him in the movies.
TheBoost
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Better a bad bomb than a bombadWhatsMyName said:
No sith in the movies can amount up to Darth Maul. I don't see how you can deny that he has potential.
Potential to do what? Be silent and look cool? Because that's all he does.
If he started talking and was given motivations and a backstory, he would have become lame... like Boba Fett did.
Maul did what he needed to do. Look cool, fight, and die. So did Boba.
They knew their role and shut their mouths.
EyeShotFirst
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Return to Form, or Forum in this case!!TheBoost said:
WhatsMyName said:
No sith in the movies can amount up to Darth Maul. I don't see how you can deny that he has potential.
Potential to do what? Be silent and look cool? Because that's all he does.
If he started talking and was given motivations and a backstory, he would have become lame... like Boba Fett did.
Maul did what he needed to do. Look cool, fight, and die. So did Boba.
They knew their role and shut their mouths.
^this
"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won't last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you'll be able to project it on a 20' by 40' screen with perfect quality. I think it's the director's prerogative, not the studio's to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas
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twooffour
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WhatsMyName said:
First off, don't put down the Fett man. He's one of the best characters in the OT.
Vader was whiny in ROTS. That just killed it for me when he did the line. "NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
No sith in the movies can amount up to Darth Maul. I don't see how you can deny that he has potential.
Liam Nesson did make Qui-Gon cool. I still think it would've been cool to see more of him in the movies.
Boba Fett was NOT a "character" in the OT.
If you exclude the OT Vader and Emperor, then hey, sure, Darth Maul here might be the "best" in the PT. Although cackling Palpy is pretty awesome, too. Cartoony and hammy, but just so eeeeeeeevil!
haljordan28
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palpatine is an idiot in the PT. in episode 3 when yoda pushed him back in the chair and he set their with his legs in the air I almost felt like getting up and walking out. then when anakin first turns and palpatine says GOOOOOOOOOOD! I felt sick it sounded so stupid. Some of this stuff is so bad I honestly think lucas did it on purpose to either piss the fans off or because he deep down doesnt care if these films are good or not cause there is no way he could have watched some of those scenes and think they were good. it is impossible. the palpatine in episode 6 was evil. no cackling no retarded movments Just what I thought at the time was an evil old wizard.
Didnt george ever ask himself why palpatine kept shooting lighting at mace windu while it was byrning his face up? why not just stop shoting it. it sure didnt fry luke. it is impossible for these questions t not pop in lucas mind or the producers or the editors. How could this stuff not have been brought up during production.
there are many theroies as to why but If I had to bet on one my only personal opinion is Lucas hates star wars deep down. blaming it for the lose of his wife and for the lose of his so called career s it boxed him into a corner or so he thought. In his interviews NOT one person ask lucas any tough questions about his motives. everyone ask the same crap over and over and over. I would give a yrs worth of pay for a ten minute sit down with lucas. The last indy film tells me he has lost his mind. Tales of the golden monkey was better than the crysal skulls
WhatsMyName
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haljordan28 said:
palpatine is an idiot in the PT. in episode 3 when yoda pushed him back in the chair and he set their with his legs in the air I almost felt like getting up and walking out. then when anakin first turns and palpatine says GOOOOOOOOOOD! I felt sick it sounded so stupid. Some of this stuff is so bad I honestly think lucas did it on purpose to either piss the fans off or because he deep down doesnt care if these films are good or not cause there is no way he could have watched some of those scenes and think they were good. it is impossible. the palpatine in episode 6 was evil. no cackling no retarded movments Just what I thought at the time was an evil old wizard.
Didnt george ever ask himself why palpatine kept shooting lighting at mace windu while it was byrning his face up? why not just stop shoting it. it sure didnt fry luke. it is impossible for these questions t not pop in lucas mind or the producers or the editors. How could this stuff not have been brought up during production.
there are many theroies as to why but If I had to bet on one my only personal opinion is Lucas hates star wars deep down. blaming it for the lose of his wife and for the lose of his so called career s it boxed him into a corner or so he thought. In his interviews NOT one person ask lucas any tough questions about his motives. everyone ask the same crap over and over and over. I would give a yrs worth of pay for a ten minute sit down with lucas. The last indy film tells me he has lost his mind. Tales of the golden monkey was better than the crysal skulls
I agree on how stupid it looked when Palps was force pushed over his desk and did that weird "No" and "Good". In a way it reminded me of Smeagol from Lord of the Rings.
The reason he was letting it fry his face up was so he could influence Anakin. By showing how scarred up he was, it only influenced Anakin more to want to save him.
I'd argue the last point, but it would just drag on and on. So, yeah...
Star Wars could have been a modern day Iliad.