TheBoost said:

generalfrevious said:

What if Homer made a prequel to the Iliad and the Odyssey that was just as bad as the PT? Those two works would never have become the classics of western civilization as they are now.

 I imagine that, much like 99.9% of all work created by all artists throughought time, the less than stellar works would have be relegated to the dustbin of history and we'd still like the "Illiad" and the "Odyssey."

 

This.

Liszt wrote a bunch of dull, boring works in his life, yet everyone somehow still remembers the awesome ones (even though there are actually little known gems scattered around everywhere).

Haydn's reputation doesn't suffer from the fact that he's best known by probably one of the dullest and blandest of his, or any compositions every written, the German national anthem.

If the OT doesn't stand the test of time just because the PT exists, it'll be proof that the "test of time" isn't ANY kind of a reliable indicator for quality.

haljordan28 said:

I  disagree.  THe dialogue between yoda and luke in empire is poetic in my eyes and some of the best  dialogue  ever written in a  fantasy/sc-fi film.  It is philosophical  and enlightening.

Some of the dialogue in episode 5 goes over peoples head and they do not truly understand the philosophy behind it.

Luke - 'What's in there?"

Yoda - 'Only what you take with you"

That is brilliant.  Many people think yoda just means if luke takes a  blaster in there that means he has a blaster  but what yoda is  saying is spiritual and philosophical. He tells luke he does not need his weapons but  luke takes them anyways and he has fear and self doubt  and it is that self doubt and fear that luke takes in with him  and that is  why when he  chops off vaders head he sees his own face. The force is telling Luke that if he were to fight vader that day   it is his head that would be choped off and that he is not ready because he still has self doubt and no confidence.

 

All the lines between luke and yoda  in episode 5  are brilliant and  they mean something if you can read between the lines. There is not one instance in the PT films where jedi master and student are training and there is memorable dialogue. Not one.

When Luke fails to raise the x-wing and yoda  gives luke that speech when luke sits down is some of the best dialogue I have heard in any film period.

"Size matters not. Look at m, judge me by my size do you? and well you should not..for my allie is the force and a powerful allie it is. Life creates it, makes it grow.its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminius  beings are we  not this crude matter."

I have been drunk before and have cried   at some of the scenes  in episode 5. I know that sounds gay but hey I  was drunk.  Bottom line   is episode 5  is  pure brilliance.

ANother  film that comes to mind with  dialouge  that is  spoken in riddles of phillosophy is  wrath of khan. The  underlining story arc of that film is kirks  depression  about growing old. SPock gives krik a book for his birthday  and  kirk reads the line  when spck gives it to him and it says "it was the best of times , it was the worst of times"  Kirk ask spock if he is trying to give him a message and spock says no. When spock is paged to report to the enterprise  kirk ask him where he is going and spock says the enterprise and he ask kirk where he is off to and kirk looks at the floor  with a sad expression and mumbles "home" and walks off.  Kirk was the only  man to ever pass the kobyashi maru test and he did it by cheating becaseu it is a non win scenario test  and at the end of the movie spock gives his life so that the crew could  live and he admits to kirk before he dies that he never took the kobyashi mru test until  then and ask kirk what did he think of his solution. He had to  give his own life to beat the no win scenario and only then  minutes later  did kirk understand the meaning of spocks book for his birthday. He just lost  his bestfriend and left the funeral and mcoy ask him how he feels and he responds by saying he feels young. through out the entire film kirk is sad and depressed cause he feels old and only  till his best friend dies  does he understand spocks message and he feels young again. This sounds silly but if you get a chance to watch the film any time soon watch it with all these things in mind. it really changes the film. I didn't notice them either till i listened tio  my brothers william shatner bio tape that shatner  made and he explaisn all this.

but back to star wars  episode 5 is on par with Shakespeare in my eyes.  Shakespeare in space. It is at least the closest thing you are going to get  and the PT films had  even more potential  to reach that level than the OT did  because  there was so much going on to  build  on and build up to.  TH rise of a hero and  great jedi who is admired and loved who tragicly  is seducded through no fault of his own and falls from grace. Not because he wanted power not ebcause he wanted to save his wife not   because of anything   selfish  but because  he was seduced. That is/was suppose to be the great tragedy of it all. Everything anakin does in the PT films is done so out of being selfish.  The flaws  of  those three films are so plain and in yuor face its unreal yet so many ppl act as if they are not there or just  sweep them under the carpet for some reason.

 

 

 

That is brilliant.  Many people think yoda just means if luke takes a  blaster in there that means he has a blaster  but what yoda is  saying is spiritual and philosophical. He tells luke he does not need his weapons but  luke takes them anyways and he has fear and self doubt  and it is that self doubt and fear that luke takes in with him  and that is  why when he  chops off vaders head he sees his own face. The force is telling Luke that if he were to fight vader that day   it is his head that would be choped off and that he is not ready because he still has self doubt and no confidence.

Really? I've always thought what he takes with him is his "dark side" (which is never established or hinted at anywhere else in the story save for the ending - which is a demerit in my eyes), and seeing his own face in Vader's mask meant that he could BECOME LIKE Vader, e.g. after striking him down and "taking his place" - you know, what happened.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

If the vision had wanted to show him that he's too trembling and uncertain to win a fight, wouldn't it have played out a bit differently? Like Luke's head getting chopped off? Basically, according to your interpretation, trembling Luke strikes down his trembling self, to show that the other trembling self is trembling and therefore vulnerable... what? But hey, you know, visions don't care about plot holes as long as the message comes across, right?! :D

Nah, going with the other, obvious one.

"Size matters not. Look at m, judge me by my size do you? and well you should not..for my allie is the force and a powerful allie it is. Life creates it, makes it grow.its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminius  beings are we  not this crude matter."

I have been drunk before and have cried   at some of the scenes  in episode 5. I know that sounds gay but hey I  was drunk.  Bottom line   is episode 5  is  pure brilliance.

So what? I've "cried" at SOAD's "Holy Mountains", or Radiohead's "Airbag", that doesn't mean those songs can compare to any classical masterpiece in terms of composition and complexity.

Again, take the lines above, then put them into context of the rest of the movie's dialogue, and compare the LANGUAGE to any of those "classical works" listed. There is no comparison, that stuff is on a whole other level.

The flaws  of  those three films are so plain and in yuor face its unreal yet so many ppl act as if they are not there or just  sweep them under the carpet for some reason.

We all agree the PT sucks, what does that have to do with anything?

Some people say Metallica's "St. Anger" sucks - that doesn't elevate "Kill 'Em All" (my favorite of them all) to Alkan, or "the closest we'll ever get".

Why not just appreciate SW for the awesome piece of pop culture it is, instead of trying to sell it as on par with some uber complex literary classic? 

The Han and Leia exchanges in ESB are awesome, but are they really better than any number of other "bickering love/hate leads" from other movies? The Luke/Force storyline aside, the dialogue and plot in these films is basically the one of a really good, fun adventure movie. Nothing pretentious. Nothing sophisticated.

generalfrevious said:

If the shoe fits...

What if Homer made a prequel to the Iliad and the Odyssey that was just as bad as the PT? Those two works would never have become the classics of western civilization as they are now. To be honest, at first I didn't even hate the prequels; but then I found out they were terrible movies from other people. Before that I honestly believed that these were as good as the OT. But I guess I was stupid (I hate to say this, but it took me years to realize that TPM was a bad movie). Six years after the PT and we have gone from a great film trilogy to a six-film franchise that may not even be half-good. Its now painful to watch these films, knowing what could have happened, GL took the route that was a hundred times worse than our worst fears. SW is dead, man. 

I'll be satisfied if one person agrees with me on that statement.

May I ask you WHY you thought TPM was a good movie? Just curious. I mean, did you enjoy it, or aspects of it, did you have reasons to think that way?