Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Items' Thread & other unintended objects :: 1 > 5

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none's avatar
Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Items' Thread & other unintended objects

In early versions of Star Wars, just after the Tantive IV got rocked by the approaching Star Destroyer, as 3po and R2 make their way down the corridor in back-to-back frames there are two large orange items.  (Example pics from the 16mm Puggo Grande)

These two Orange Items are not the only ones which exist thru out the film.  But they have become the symbolic identifiers of this phenomenon.  As home preservations become of better quality additional ones may be found.  For example in this sequence there was a third item which was not apparent in official VHS versions but can be seen in the 16mm versions.  A fourth possible candidate was found in a 35mm print.  Here is a guide to the Orange Items from these consecutive Tantive sequence of frames:

 

msycamore provided other locations where Orange Items appear in this post:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-Tantives-Orange-Errors-Thread/post/565509/#TopicPost565509

 

Whether they are rips or burns is undecided.  They have been patched, over the years, only to reappears a few years later.  But once the Special Editions arrived they ceased to exist. 

This thread is for discussing these orange items and how their appearance lets us know about the origin of the home video version in question.  ...and hopefully something else otherwise this could be a short thread!

 

Pics Comparison Page: (HTML5 Browsers)

http://fd.noneinc.com/Glitch/starwars-tantiveorangeerrors/starwars-tantiveorangeerrors.html

This page has screen caps from various version where the orange items appear outright, but also version where it's unsure if they've been 'fixed' or if it's a different source.  Also has some of the Special Edition versions where this shot has been reframed.  (please let me know of other versions to add to the list, if you've got pics that's great, if you don't let me know anyway)

 

A possible explanation of how they came into being is from the 'Sounds of Star Wars' book:

"At one point while Burtt was working in the basement of Park Way, he was handed the color work print. At that time, Lucasfilm had only one work print of Star Wars, so the utmost care was used when handling it. "I thought, 'This is really valuable; my future's at stake here," says Burtt. "So I threaded the work print up on my Movieola very carefully. I checked all the rollers and sprockets to make sure it was okay. Then I pressed Go - and ripped the films to shreads! Oh, boy. So I spliced it back together and tried to pretend it didn't happen. But all the screenings from then on always had this jumpy spot right when the stormtroopers come bursting through the door of the Blockade Runner."

 

Here are some previous threads which discussed the Orange Items:

Last edited on June 26, 2012 at 3:17 AM by none
none's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

Space for Pics:

Clearly visible:

1977 mthr :



1977 Starkiller :


1977 Puggo Grande :


1977 Puggo Krig :


1993 msycamore Technidisc :


1994 VHS Effy11 :

Fixed versions:

T.B.D. (If you spot something which looks like a fix, post up)

Special Edition versions:

 

Other:

Last edited on September 23, 2011 at 10:03 PM by none
msycamore's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

What Burtt says in that book is probably what we're seeing in this scene but have anyone checked the actual scene he describes "right when the stormtroopers come bursting through the door" for some jumpy spot?

Continuing the discussion from the other thread, http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Complete-Comparison-of-Special-Edition-Visual-Changes/topic/11927/page/33/ it would be nice to see the complete article from the September 1993 issue of Widescreen Review, I had it in PDF format at one time but have since lost it. It doesn't seem like you can download the back issues on their site any longer either. I just copied and pasted that one from a post made in hometheaterforum at the time the dreaded GOUT was about to be released.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

msycamore's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

None, what is this "1982 Library Starkiller Preservation"? never heard of it before, the framing/cropping is quite different from the '82 LD.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

danny_boy's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

The burn mark is also missing from the 1982 UK TV broadcast of ANH.

It's significant because the print used for this telecine featured the mono audio track.

I am assuming the print was used for the April 1981 back to back 2 week theatrical engagment with ESB.

Now as to whether this was a print that was from 1977 with the new crawl spliced in-------or if it was a new IP struck specifically for this brief release is unknown.

ITV(UK broadcaster) may still have the video telecine or the actual print  kicking around somewhere in their archives.

 

Last edited on September 24, 2011 at 1:04 PM by danny_boy

I saw Star Wars in 1977. Many, many, many times. For 3 years it was just Star Wars...period. I saw it in good theaters, cheap theaters and drive-ins with those clunky metal speakers you hang on your window. The screen and sound quality never subtracted from the excitement. I can watch the original cut right now, over 30 years later, on some beat up VHS tape and enjoy it. It's the story that makes this movie. Nothing? else.

kurtb8474 1 week ago

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SkAZxd-5Hp8


The Aluminum Falcon's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

msycamore said:

None, what is this "1982 Library Starkiller Preservation"? never heard of it before, the framing/cropping is quite different from the '82 LD.

I believe it is the 1982 Rental-Only VHS. Starkiller made a transfer of that. I would definitely guess that this is it since on the upper left hand corner, you can see these static things, which also appear throughout the movie on my copy of the 1982 rental VHS.

none and msycamore, if I'm wrong, sorry for giving out misinformation.

The Aluminum Falcon's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

msycamore said:

never heard of it before, the framing/cropping is quite different from the '82 LD.

It's odd that it looks so different and doesn't have the burn marks. It is odd how the burn marks were present originally but then disappeared, certainly not due to DVNR back then.

In any case, for some reason, to my eyes, the Rental VHS looks cleaner than the laserdisc (which looks to be overcropped and oversaturated). Look at the detail on R2 in the second shot, the VHS seems to be clearer. Interesting...

none's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

msycamore wrote: What Burtt says in that book is probably what we're seeing in this scene but have anyone checked the actual scene he describes "right when the stormtroopers come bursting through the door" for some jumpy spot?

Yeah looked at two versions and not noticing anything out of the ordinary.  Same slight jittering, which is all over the home video releases.  But after the Stormtroopers come in is another slight rip or mark. (thru the helmet)

Burtt may explain the scene, in this manner, as that's how most people would remember it.  If you said Tantive to most people it wouldn't register, but the first sight of the Stormtroopers is something most people would recall.  But yes he could just have said first appearance of 3po and R2.  Not sure, but from the story, there was a whole bunch of film lying on the floor.

A second thought, how did they achieve the initial shaky camera effect.  As it doesn't change (at all?) between releases going with the idea that it was done on set, just hit the camera guy.  But is there a chance the effect was done in post?

msycamore wrote: what is this "1982 Library Starkiller Preservation"?

(from the .nfo)

This is a transfer of the 1982 Star Wars "Video Rental Library" videocassette. This VHS tape was the first ever commercial home video release of Star Wars. It features a full screen pan and scan transfer along with the original 1977 Dolby Stereo sound mix.

Aluminum Falcon, would you happen to know what those cut off characters said?

danny_boy wrote: The burn mark is also missing from the 1982 UK TV broadcast of ANH.

Do you have a recording of that?  Could post some pics.

 

Updated: http://fd.noneinc.com/Glitch/starwars-tantiveorangeerrors/starwars-tantiveorangeerrors.html

Added second 1977 Starkiller pic, 1982 CED Starkiller, 1986 LD Japan Special Collection Arnie.d, 1993 Full Screen & 1996 Widescreen TV SciFi Broadcasts pics.

So the 82 CED, 86 LDJapan and 82UKTV are all possible candidates for Not having the orange errors?  Seems as if the other 82's Starkiller's LD and Library versions also appear orange error free.  If we concur, i'll create a new category color code for these.

What's people's opinion of the 1995 Faces Full Screen?  In the 1995 Widescreen it's noticeable, but less so in the Full Screen.

 

Just weird but looking at the OrangeA pics, 3po looks mad.  Something about the shadows and the dome glow...

Haven't seen that Widescreen Review article, will see if maybe through multiple pages the full article could be found.

on the webpage, anyone having issues with the format, is this a good presentation method?  tried to get the OrangeA/B images centered upon themselves, but then it screwed up another aspect, they wouldn't show full size, they'd get cropped by the frame.  Seeing if there's a different way of create the same effect. 

Last edited on September 24, 2011 at 4:21 PM by none
LexX's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

I'd check my rental version but my DVD drive won't read DVDs anymore...

Maybe a little clarification would be in order, I transferred my Finnish '83 rental VHS to DVD and that probably is the same as the '82 version in the UK (which I also have on VHS but don't have any of them here now).

Last edited on September 24, 2011 at 5:10 PM by LexX

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

The Aluminum Falcon's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

none said:

Aluminum Falcon, would you happen to know what those cut off characters said?

I was actually going to ask you that. Honestly, I can't read them since it's just the bottom of the letters. They are present throughout the entire film though; it maybe something added during the mastering to VHS tapes because I don't see it on the laserdisc.

Audiences back then might not have been able to see it because the TV overscan would cut it off...

It's on my personal transfer of the NTSC 1982 Rental VHS, as well.

zombie84's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

Burtt jamming up the workprint has nothing to do with the film. The workprint is the workprint, not the negative, it's just a copy they make for the editor to work on. It gets jammed up, thrown on the floor, gets drawn on with marker, etc.

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

msycamore's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

Ah the rental tape, so that what it was, thanks. It's a little weird that they actually made two different NTSC - Pan & Scan transfers for the different formats the same year. If I understand it correctly they used one for the VHS and Betamax release and another for the CED and Laserdisc. Never knew about the characters in the upper frame, is it letters or some sort of time code or is it static throughout the film?

The Aluminum Falcon said:

In any case, for some reason, to my eyes, the Rental VHS looks cleaner than the laserdisc (which looks to be overcropped and oversaturated). Look at the detail on R2 in the second shot, the VHS seems to be clearer. Interesting...

That's because it is a blended frame.

none said:

msycamore wrote: What Burtt says in that book is probably what we're seeing in this scene but have anyone checked the actual scene he describes "right when the stormtroopers come bursting through the door" for some jumpy spot?

Yeah looked at two versions and not noticing anything out of the ordinary.  Same slight jittering, which is all over the home video releases.  But after the Stormtroopers come in is another slight rip or mark. (thru the helmet)

Burtt may explain the scene, in this manner, as that's how most people would remember it.  If you said Tantive to most people it wouldn't register, but the first sight of the Stormtroopers is something most people would recall.  But yes he could just have said first appearance of 3po and R2.  Not sure, but from the story, there was a whole bunch of film lying on the floor.

A second thought, how did they achieve the initial shaky camera effect.  As it doesn't change (at all?) between releases going with the idea that it was done on set, just hit the camera guy.  But is there a chance the effect was done in post? 

Thanks for checking, you never know with old Benjamin. I wonder why they register as orange, I noticed that you have more of them when I worked on the Technidisc, for example see 2nd close up of Luke in the sunset. I would be very surprised if the shaky camera effect wasn't done on set, cheap and effective.

none said:

So the 82 CED, 86 LDJapan and 82UKTV are all possible candidates for Not having the orange errors?  Seems as if the other 82's Starkiller's LD and Library versions also appear orange error free.  If we concur, i'll create a new category color code for these.

If I understand it correctly, the '82 CED and  '82 LD uses the same transfer so the tear-free ones would be so far:

  • '82 VHS, Betamax
  • '82 CED, LD
  • '86 JSC LD, '89/'92 SWE LD

 

Don't know about the various early PAL videos.

none said: 

Haven't seen that Widescreen Review article, will see if maybe through multiple pages the full article could be found.

on the webpage, anyone having issues with the format, is this a good presentation method?  tried to get the OrangeA/B images centered upon themselves, but then it screwed up another aspect, they wouldn't show full size, they'd get cropped by the frame.  Seeing if there's a different way of create the same effect. 

Thanks. You're the web-master. ;) I think the comparison page is great and very easy to follow, good job! :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

none's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

zombie wrote: Burtt jamming up the workprint has nothing to do with the film.

Yeah makes sense.  And as you can't see the jumpy spot the quote mentions when the Stormtroopers enter, this is probably the case.  But there's that .001% chance that he's mixing up some details.  And maybe attributing it to Burtt, for the time being, will make someone bring up the real story behind these things.

So are they rips or burns?  Is undeveloped film orange in color, could these be undeveloped areas?  A film imperfection.  Probably not, the shape is more something would come about from stress.

Updated the page: http://fd.noneinc.com/Glitch/starwars-tantiveorangeerrors/starwars-tantiveorangeerrors.html  added the 'no orange items' category, figured out some sources and added a few other titles.

As these errors re-emerge as they began SE work, guess they dug up maybe the print which was used for the '77 16mm and that copy became the base for the early '90s home video versions?

msycamore wrote: It's a little weird that they actually made two different NTSC - Pan & Scan transfers for the different formats the same year. (82)

Did the same thing happen in 1995?  The widescreen Faces cap, there's some sign of the errors but in the Full Screen i'm not sure.

msycamore wrote: You're the web-master. ;) I think the comparison page is great and very easy to follow

Problem is i'm using some HTML5 code which not all the browsers have accepted yet.  For instance Firefox will blow up the image when scrolled over but not smoothly.  Chrome will do it smoothly to see the full size images.  And i'm guessing IE might not accept the jQuery expansion/hiding code...

The Aluminum Falcon's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

msycamore said:

Never knew about the characters in the upper frame, is it letters or some sort of time code or is it static throughout the film?

It's completely static through the whole film.

That's because it is a blended frame.

Ah I see. Gotcha.

msycamore's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

zombie84 said:

Burtt jamming up the workprint has nothing to do with the film. The workprint is the workprint, not the negative, it's just a copy they make for the editor to work on. It gets jammed up, thrown on the floor, gets drawn on with marker, etc.

Of course! I'm glad you're around to setting us straight. :) This tear should be on the negative not on some workprint.

none said:

Did the same thing happen in 1995?  The widescreen Faces cap, there's some sign of the errors but in the Full Screen i'm not sure.

Hard to see in just those caps if they are there on the '95 fullscreen, even though the '82 CED and LD have a different transfer from the tapes from that same year, they could still be from the same IP/film elements, as can be seen they are cropped diferently but they also have different choices in the pan & scan. The transfers on the '82 tapes look very similar to what was used for the '85 and '92 LD's but without the letters in frame, but that is some huge guesswork on my part just going by those pics. So the ones lacking the tears is so far:

  • '82 VHS, Betamax
  • '82 CED, LD
  • '85 LD
  • '86 JSC LD, '89/'92 SWE LD - the only Widescreen transfers without them
  • '92 LD

 

If all these are from the same IP/film elements I don't know, but it seems the Widescreen transfers and '82 CED/LD are from the same source.

The Aluminum Falcon said:

msycamore said:

Never knew about the characters in the upper frame, is it letters or some sort of time code or is it static throughout the film?

It's completely static through the whole film.

Weird, like you said they were hidden by the old TV's overscan, that's why I never saw it on my old copy.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

danny_boy's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

 

1982 PAL 20th century fox library rental VHS on left------PAL UK 1982 VHS premiere broadcast on right(mono optical audio track)

Last edited on September 25, 2011 at 5:44 PM by danny_boy

I saw Star Wars in 1977. Many, many, many times. For 3 years it was just Star Wars...period. I saw it in good theaters, cheap theaters and drive-ins with those clunky metal speakers you hang on your window. The screen and sound quality never subtracted from the excitement. I can watch the original cut right now, over 30 years later, on some beat up VHS tape and enjoy it. It's the story that makes this movie. Nothing? else.

kurtb8474 1 week ago

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=SkAZxd-5Hp8


TServo2049's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

The code on the Rental Library VHS says "FOXVID" something. VHS tapes in the early 80s sometimes had these codes superimposed in the upper part of the image (maybe it had something to do with the duplication process?). I know that Warner also did it, there's a similar code on the old "Nelvanamation" video that had A Cosmic Christmas on it.

This information would be overscanned out on the CRTs of the era, but watching on an LCD or a capture makes them more visible. (I think the top of the code is in that part of the image you don't see unless you "scan", i.e. rewind or fast-forward while the tape is playing.)

I seem to recall that I used to have a Magnetic Video copy of The Making of Star Wars which had a similar code that said "FOX" and some numbers.

I think the 1982 video releases must have come from the IP of the 1981 reissue that introduced the Episode IV crawl. Like most (all?) of the pre-THX pan and scan releases, it had the 1981 Fox logo instead of the classic one, but the '82 VHS I checked out from the public library about 5 years ago also replaced the 50s fanfare with that John Williams re-recording done for ESB. Was that on theatrical prints of the '81 reissue too? (All of the non-THX P&S versions I'd seen had the logo replaced, but not the fanfare.)

And there's a flaw in your argument about different IPs being made in '77 - all pre-ANH prints and bootlegs we've found have these marks, whether from 35mm or 16mm, stereo or mono, domestic or foreign, with the original or revised end credits. If I had to guess, the marks were introduced when the lab did the '77 interpositive, or internegative, or whatever was used to make the 35mm and 16mm prints pre-ANH. (Did the print shown in Baltimore have them, I wonder?)

Last edited on September 27, 2011 at 9:37 PM by TServo2049
msycamore's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

Thanks for explaining the code on the tapes.

TServo2049 said:

I think the 1982 video releases must have come from the IP of the 1981 reissue that introduced the Episode IV crawl. Like most (all?) of the pre-THX pan and scan releases, it had the 1981 Fox logo instead of the classic one, but the '82 VHS I checked out from the public library about 5 years ago also replaced the 50s fanfare with that John Williams re-recording done for ESB. Was that on theatrical prints of the '81 reissue too? (All of the non-THX P&S versions I'd seen had the logo replaced, but not the fanfare.)

Interesting, never heard of this replacement of Newman's fanfare with Williams '80 re-recording, I'm pretty sure the '82 LD have the original in place though. And I had no idea that the '81 re-issue used a different logo, are you sure about this? as far as I know the 1953 logo with the tilted 0 was still in use in '81, are you talking about the one which was on Return of the Jedi? 

I doubt Williams re-recording was in place for the theatrical '81 re-issue but everything is possible I guess, isn't Alfred Newman's fanfare still left after all these years, I know it was for the SE, how is the blu-ray?

Last edited on September 27, 2011 at 10:23 PM by msycamore

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

TServo2049's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' - Rips or Burns and More!

The revised Fox logo debuted in the summer of 1981; the reissue of SW was in April, so I am now certain that the new logo did *not* appear on it in theaters; thus, it was just edited on for the initial video releases. (Which would make sense, since there's a video edit from the cropped Fox logo to the squeezed Lucasfilm credit.)

All versions I've seen except the original '82 video had the correct fanfare. So I guess it was just dubbed over for the initial video release. Why? No clue.

Watch the very end of this clip of the network TV premiere of SW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Du-s3jmJU

You can see the 80s Fox logo fade up, and if you listen to the drums of the Fox fanfare, you can hear that it's not the Newman recording, or the Williams recording, but the anemic re-recording that Fox used through the 80s and into the early 90s. Thinking back, yes, I think that was the version I heard on the '82 VHS. I remember it because I had *never* seen a version of the first film that didn't have the classic 50s recording of the fanfare.

As a kid, I had the 1990 VHS of ANH - it definitely had the logo seen on ROTJ, coupled with the 50s Newman fanfare. I remember wondering back then why ESB had a different logo than ANH or ROTJ, and it was only when the THX releases came out that I saw that ANH had that "tilted 0" like ESB did.

Looking at the clips of the time-compressed CED on YouTube, I can see that it has the correct Fox logo - I'm assuming that the first compressed LD was exactly the same. Thus, it would have been only the original VHS and Betamax (which weren't compressed, right?) that had the replaced Fox logo and fanfare (later P&S releases, at least on VHS, would have the logo replaced, but with the original fanfare intact). Can someone check the Starkiller Rental Library preservation?

I understand that this is getting off the subject of the Orange Errors, let me bring it back by saying that all the video releases prior to the Technidisc SWE obviously came from newer IPs which were made from a source that did not have the errors. This means that the errors were not on the original negative - as I said before, they must have been introduced on the original IP (since the Technidisc SWE and PAL THX LDs have them, and they came from a generation before the addition of the alien subtitles - see below).

From what I've gathered, the '85 IP was used on the '85 P&S releases and the JSC/"shrinking ratio" SWE. In '93, they went back to an IP from '77, according to that Widescreen Review article - this was what would have been used on the Technidisc SWE and the '93 transfer. Though here's what confuses me - they said they didn't have IPs without the subtitles, but the IPs used for home video obviously lacked them. I'd assume that those IPs were either too faded or too worn to be used again (and by 1993, the negative had reached the poor condition that they'd find it in when they exhumed it to prepare the SE).

Last edited on September 28, 2011 at 12:53 AM by TServo2049
msycamore's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' Thread

TServo2049 said:

Looking at the clips of the time-compressed CED on YouTube, I can see that it has the correct Fox logo - I'm assuming that the first compressed LD was exactly the same. Thus, it would have been only the original VHS and Betamax (which weren't compressed, right?) that had the replaced Fox logo and fanfare (later P&S releases, at least on VHS, would have the logo replaced, but with the original fanfare intact). Can someone check the Starkiller Rental Library preservation?

Yes, I checked and the original Fox logo is on the '82 LD. The tapes should definitely not be time-compressed, I regret that I got rid of my old betamax copy, is Starkiller's preservation still available somewhere?

TServo2049 said:

I understand that this is getting off the subject of the Orange Errors, let me bring it back by saying that all the video releases prior to the Technidisc SWE obviously came from newer IPs which were made from a source that did not have the errors. This means that the errors were not on the original negative - as I said before, they must have been introduced on the original IP (since the Technidisc SWE and PAL THX LDs have them, and they came from a generation before the addition of the alien subtitles - see below).

From what I've gathered, the '85 IP was used on the '85 P&S releases and the JSC/"shrinking ratio" SWE. In '93, they went back to an IP from '77, according to that Widescreen Review article - this was what would have been used on the Technidisc SWE and the '93 transfer. Though here's what confuses me - they said they didn't have IPs without the subtitles, but the IPs used for home video obviously lacked them. I'd assume that those IPs were either too faded or too worn to be used again (and by 1993, the negative had reached the poor condition that they'd find it in when they exhumed it to prepare the SE).

Your theory sounds good, I'm not sure if the PAL THX transfers are from the same source as the NTSC THX transfers but you're probably right. So if we try to break it down with a little guessing:

New IP made for home video:

  • '82 CED/LD
  • '82 Betamax/VHS
  • '85 LD
  • '86 JSC, '89/'92 SWE
  • '92 LD

 

"Original" IP:

  • '93 Technidisc SWE
  • '93 Definitive Collection, '95 Faces
  • '95 PAL THX transfers
  • '06 GOUT

 

This dirty, grainy and battered IP wasn't made to produce release prints as it was blank without subs, according to the Widescreen Review article they wanted to avoid those IP's due to having subtitles in place and being an additional generation away from the source. What I don't get is, if those marks/tears aren't on the negative and were introduced on the original IP, why did they have to alter that corridor sequence when they went back to the negative for producing the '97SE if it wasn't for those tears?

And why the hell was this so called "original" IP so damn grainy, it's one thing if it was only dirty due to wear an tear and bad storage. We also have to remember that this IP cannot originate from '77, it had the '81 opening in place, the original '77 opening was just spliced in when it was time for the DVD in '06.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

TServo2049's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' Thread

That list seems right, but wasn't a new IP made in '85, and wasn't that the element used for the JSC transfer? So that means that the '82 release would have used a different IP, right?

My guesses about the presence of the '81 crawl on the "original" IP:

1.) When the 1981 reissue rolled around, the ANH crawl could have been spliced onto the IP so it could be used to produce a new internegative for foreign reissue prints without the English subtitles.

2.) The IP they used for the DC actually had the '77 crawl but it was simply replaced for the video transfer.

3.) It wasn't an original 1977 IP, but a later dupe of said IP with the '81 crawl on it. (Which would account for both the presence of the flaws from the '77 IP, and the additional grain/wear/damage.)

I'm not sure. All I know is that the negative could not have had the "errors" because the IP(s) used for the 80s video transfers did not have them. If it were on the O-neg, every single film element made from it would also have them.

What exactly do you mean, the scene was altered for the SE?

And I thought that none's comparison shows that both the NTSC and PAL THX transfers used the same element, but in the NTSC the errors were DVNR'ed out.

I'm as confused by all this as you are - I don't pretend to have the answers, I'm just guessing.

Last edited on September 28, 2011 at 2:21 PM by TServo2049
msycamore's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' Thread

No, I'm not questioning your thoughts on this, your thoughts on this are great, it's all a little confusing that's all.

They reframed the sequence in the corridor for the '97 SE, suggesting that some other material was maybe used to repair that damaged part.

It's true that the PAL THX transfers also have the marks, but there's still a possibility that those marks could be present on several IP's.

Going by the level of grain on the "original" IP suggests it's dupe material, the sequels are equally grainy, at least Empire.

 

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

TServo2049's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' Thread

I think the O-neg has a larger image field than what we usually see - framing around the edges is not always the same on every print or every video transfer (like the scene with the Tusken scouts, where in one transfer - JSC? - we can see a sliver of sky at the top that we usually don't). Maybe they just framed it a little farther to the left when they did the restoration.

If the IPs used for the THX transfers were dupes, then yes, the PAL could have used a different dupe.

It really baffles me how they wanted a source with a closer generation, but the prints they used may well have been more generations removed than the ones used for 80s video releases. Yet everyone back in the 90s, myself included, saw them as looking superior to the old releases - was it just due to the improved video mastering? (DVNR aside, of course...)

Last edited on September 28, 2011 at 3:50 PM by TServo2049
msycamore's avatar
RE: Star Wars : 'Tantive's Orange Errors' Thread

TServo2049 said:

I think the O-neg has a larger image field than what we usually see - framing around the edges is not always the same on every print or every video transfer (like the scene with the Tusken scouts, where in one transfer - JSC? - we can see a sliver of sky at the top that we usually don't). Maybe they just framed it a little farther to the left when they did the restoration.

Yeah, the framing/cropping is never the same on every transfer, it's just that in this case it was such a large difference in composition but then again, this was done on several other places in the SE so what you're suggesting is probably what's going on.

TServo2049 said:

If the IPs used for the THX transfers were dupes, then yes, the PAL could have used a different dupe.

It really baffles me how they wanted a source with a closer generation, but the prints they used may well have been more generations removed than the ones used for 80s video releases. Yet everyone back in the 90s, myself included, saw them as looking superior to the old releases - was it just due to the improved video mastering? (DVNR aside, of course...)

Probably, they also had much more stable colors than earlier widescreen releases, and corrected scenes that were shot-day-for-night, you come a long way with that. :) But I must say that I noticed and hated that DVNR from day one, even though I saw them on a small 29" 4:3 TV back in those days. I actually first thought my set was screwed up somehow before I found out what was going on. The audio was really the true star of the THX release IMO.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

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