I'm going to see the new Raiders 4K restoration this weekend at my local arthouse, but it's being advertised as a new 35mm print. I had been curious as to what sound mix would be present with the restoration should I ever get to see it, but was under the impression that this was shown in digital screenings only.

I'm actually hoping that the repertory dept. just shipped an original 35mm print with Dolby Stereo. I quite liked the DVD's mix, but wished that the Stereo surround had been included somehow. And the LD mix is some kind of home video version like the '85 Star Wars mix, correct?

Speaking of Dolby Stereo, Batman sounds like crud on DVD/Blu-ray. Very confined and almost tinny in places. The LD features the original Dolby Stereo with really exceptional split surrounds, that in my rig (5.1 setup playing ProLogic) almost sounds like 5.1 in places. I really enjoy the film more this way, and have made excuses to watch my LD many times in the past few months.

Moth3r said:

The Dolby Stereo (Dolby Surround) format only has a mono surround channel. Unless you're feeding it through a Pro-logic II decoder?

Yes, I was really meaning separation, but as mentioned here in a review by the Widescreen Review of the LD, that single mono surround is so well done that it gives the impression at times of being split into two.

http://www.widescreenreview.com/ld_detail.php?recid=8

Then again, my receiver is 5.1 and only does ProLogic so the rear surround info is copied  over both surrounds, giving the impression of one mono channel being in the center, like 2.0 mono.

msycamore said:

I have noticed that several Dolby 2.0 surround tracks sound incredibly good through ProLogic II, The Empire Strikes Back is one of them, but I have also noticed that some sound a little weird in places, Star Wars is one of them, I usually force my receiver to regular ProLogic on that one. Was Batman ever re-mixed for the DVD/Blu-ray? I have both the old and new DVD release, maybe I should compare them.

I think it's like what I mentioned above, some Dolby Surround titles are better mixes for separation when compared to others, and some even can sound remotely like 5.1.

Batman immediately sounded off to me on the 2005 Special Edition. All four films got new HD masters and sound mixes (DVD: Dolby/DTS Blu: TrueHD). The mixes seem to come straight from original stems or something but lack in presence for some reason at points. Returns was the first major Dolby 5.1 release, so I think it was just the first film that was remixed. I think the original DVDs were pretty much straight transfers of what was on hand, but IIRC there was already a 5.1 remix there for Batman. IMO once you get the LD, there's no need for anything else. And the Surround track on Forever bests the ac3 and DVD mixes.

TServo2049 said:

I wonder what the 6-track sounded like compared to the Dolby Stereo. For a lot of these movies, I wonder if the 70mm was just a higher-quality, discrete version of the mix used for the 35mm, maybe with a little "baby boom" added. I don't recall the 70mm prints of Star Trek II or Ghostbusters sounding different.

I've wondered about that myself. Everything I've read on Batman points to the 35mm and 70mm being identical in content. It should indeed be matrix encoded versus discrete from my understanding.

msycamore said:

Lucky you!

I've heard reports that the newly restored prints should've the same mix as on the DVD's, no newly added content. The reflection that was removed back in 2003 is apparently removed this time as well but the reflections on the shots of Marion is still there, and the odd CGI cliff-shot is not included.

Since the DVD release I've heard some say that a guide-track for the boulder was removed and that some mattelines were cleaned up, is this bullshit or what? Would be nice to get this straightened out.

captainsolo said:

I'm actually hoping that the repertory dept. just shipped an original 35mm print with Dolby Stereo. I quite liked the DVD's mix, but wished that the Stereo surround had been included somehow.

Except the superior format, in terms of content there wasn't any differences on Raiders like with Star Wars between the 35mm Dolby Stereo and 70mm 6-track. Also, if it was originally mixed with split surrounds in mind, the 5.1 DVD mix might be even more faithful to the makers intent than the original presentations in '81 (if it now was only with mono surrounds back then). But I understand your thoughts on it, even if the 2003 re-mix is faithful.

captainsolo said:

And the LD mix is some kind of home video version like the '85 Star Wars mix, correct?

It depends which Laserdisc you're talking about, the old pan & scan CAV should have the original 35mm Dolby Stereo in analog which would be kind of nice to preserve. I have never seen or heard the widescreen release myself, but it was apparently a re-mix, a different sound effect for when Indy dropped the staff into the map room is one thing I have heard mentioned by several people.

Thanks! I've been planning on noting every little detail possible in both PQ and AQ, not to mention plexiglass reflections... ;) I figured the reflection would be gone, along with some of the sfx shots with matte lines.

And I did mean the WS LD, perhaps they had to tweak a few things here and there for home surround. In any case, I'm just too used to the VHS Dolby Stereo I grew up on.

On Raiders...the sound appears to have been tweaked a little bit somehow. I thought a few effects may have been different but checking them against the DVD showed they were the same. However, the sound was quite wimpy. Compared to the DVD, which appears to be the same mix, it sounded flat and uninvolving and a bit tinny-especially the dialogue. Surround usage only fully appeared during big music cues, and revisiting the DVD this morning on my computer speakers showed the difference.

The image was extremely bright and being a 4K project printed back to film revealed more of the details. Color was extremely saturated, with skin tones being a noticeable vibrant orange-red. Blacks were also very strong, especially in the jungle opening. Basically imagine the 2003 DVD with Brightness, saturation and contrast increased (I tried this with VLC and got a similar looking image) Surprisingly there was little to no grain visible.

Snake reflection was still gone, Marion's still there, no CGI cliff shot, and I do think that a rod was removed from the boulder sequence (will have to get a widescreen LD to check as my VHS is pan n scan).

I think that the presentation I saw will be exactly like the upcoming Blu-ray release, but hopefully the sound will be more impressive. I'm still not sold on the overly bright looking image, and was surprised at how "clean" it was.

Anybody have memories of the '81 theatrical release or original prints?

Ah! This may explain what I noticed occasionally. On this print there were individual places where it looked like you could see an outline of a vertical line just where it would be, but there was still nothing there. This happened occasionally and was indeed during the Tanis sequence. Thought my eyes were playing tricks on me.

Other than that there was a green and yellow damage line that appeared in a later scene, which surprised me being on a brand new print.

And all the reviews rave about the sound on this restoration. I want to know what they were listening to. EDIT: probably a higher resolution file with the digital 4K screening, what I heard was probably standard crummy Dolby 5.1 on the film print. And they must have had the amps off, because I've heard better degraded mono in there...a few years back they showed a battered For a Few Dollars More and it blew me away.

I don't know how they brightened the opening, because it was just as dark as ever, if not more so. I haven't ever been sure why Paramount funded a full restoration after the Lowry transfers were made, and then didn't do the same for Temple and Crusade. I have some faith in the restoration as it was the last done by Ron Smith before he was booted out of the studio's restoration department. (He also did the recent Ten Commandments, Breakfast at Tiffany's, African Queen) But it certainly to my eyes looked like someone had been messing with the contrast and image levels.

Prediction: The Blu-ray will be the 4K master converted down to 1080p with 5.1 audio in DTS-HDMA.

I think the audio may have simply been because it was digital off the print, and someone had not turned everything on...people have raved about the digital screening's sound, which would likely be a higher resolution file akin to what would be on the Blu-ray.

I now own both the BR Director's cut and International LDs, so I'll sit down soon to compare. I primarily got them for completist's sake and for the fact that they feature the original Dolby matrixed surround mixes instead of redone 5.1 tracks.

2001 has two original versions: 70mm six-track Cinerama mix and the 35mm version which I saw, and that may have had some type of extra audio...because it certainly sounded like it! Criterion used the original master and working with Kubrick and his editor (while making Full Metal Jacket) put it straight into Dolby ProLogic for surround, and used the 35mm master (2.21:1 special print). Not sure what MGM used for their versions but it seems similar if not a bit cropped. The new mix was done for DVD and re-purposed into a 5.1 mix that tried to replicate the original 70mm intent. This has either been re-utilized or spruced up a bit for the Blu-ray. Good mix, but I might prefer the Criterion PCM a bit as it sounds closer to 1968.

North by Northwest, I can easily answer. The Criterion LD is the only edition to feature the original mono track, and PCM only on the CLV release (Which I have.) It was never for certain until recently if the film ever had a stereo or matrixed roadshow release in 1959, this issue came up on the Steve Hoffman forums, and I wound up finally getting an answer: Mono only.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=280234&highlight=north+northwest+mono&page=2

The 5.1 mix is quite good for a 50's mono film, but it's really not that necessary and to me the mono sounds much more balanced and natural. The score was recorded in stereo, but it sounds fine in mono.

I don't own the Apocalypse Blu-ray, nor is my receiver HD capable but from reports it is supposed to pretty much replicate what the film originally sounded like. However, I adore the 1991 widescreen LD PCM as Walter Murch essentially just dumped the '79 master audio straight to Dolby ProLogic Surround, giving an almost exact replica of the theatrical audio. The later 5.1 remixed LD sounds lowered, as they were trying to promote the new discrete ac3 mix of the PCM, and thus weakened the PCM original. Neither sounds as good. BTW the tiger on this LD audio will scare the pee out of you.