imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

Willow is a better Star Wars film than Jedi

I don't think I will be taking you seriously any more. :)

I'm being sincere.

It's got it's own flaws but more of the actors are actually playing characters.

It's certainly better Star Wars than the PT and I can't stand Ron Howard as a director usually.

The Ewoks only existed to sell toys. Everyone knows this. 

Otherwise, the movie falls in the middle. Not on par with the first two, but way superior to the following movies. 

generalfrevious said:

The Ewoks only existed to sell toys. Everyone knows this. 

That's a dumb statement. The furry creatures were part of the story from the beginning. They changed it from Wookiees to Ewoks because it is harder to get lots of 2.20m actors then lots of short ones.

Now the common sense. How many of you actually wanted or even had Ewok toy as a kid? I don't know anyone who did.

Ewoks are obviously more marketable than wookies, especially in light of the holiday special. Any mention of toyetic bears in the SW franchise did not exist prior to 1982; marketing was forced on the story.

Back in the mid-80s I dated a girl who ran a daycare center out of her home, and the little kids LOVED the ewok adventures.  They'd watch them over and over.  So I think the ewoks were marketable, maybe even more than they were.

Lord Haseo said:

And until ROTJ:R comes out I have to be constantly reminded of the gaping plot hole concerning Leia's true mother.

What plot hole is that?

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Lord Haseo said:

And until ROTJ:R comes out I have to be constantly reminded of the gaping plot hole concerning Leia's true mother.

What plot hole is that?

I assume he's talking about the plot hole in ROTS (not ROTJ) where Padme dies before Leia could have had memories of her.  Continuity with the existing films wasn't given a lot of consideration in the PT.  Obviously this plothole could have been avoided by having Padme live for a few more years after giving birth.  But I'm not sure how Adywan could swing that sort of change.

EDIT: I guess he could be saying that this bit in ROTJ could be edited out in ROTJ:R to effectively remove the plothole from ROTS if you're watching them as a complete saga.  But editing one movie as a way to fix continuity problems in another movie seems a little backward to me.

ROTJ is my favorite Star Wars film, but it's not because of nostalgia.

Here's my post from the Revisited Ideas thread...

AntcuFaalb said:

muddyknees2000 said:

AntcuFaalb said:

How do you feel about Yub Nub?

I think that in a film full of soaring, fantastical and moving pieces of music, that tell as much of a story as the action on the screen does.....Yub Flub is a substantial failure. Again, instead of telling of a slightly tragic victory, where Luke met, and ultimately killed his own father....instead of strains of hopeful dreams for the new galaxy and the growing relationship between Han & Leia.......instead of new beginnings for a once shady, but now much celebrated hero, Lando Calrissian.....we get teddy bears singing a nonsensical little party song.

The song isn't the only thing to blame......I think the ending could have been more bittersweet, and more interesting than the group photo pose that we did get......but the music definitely doesn't help what is already a rather silly film.

This is why we view the films differently...

While I admit that Star Wars fits the literary archetype of the epic journey (a.k.a., the hero's journey), I fail to see its value as anything more than a three-part morality tale with great characters, creatures, and Jim Henson Muppet-monsters. What I'm trying to say is that I, personally, take more away from the Jabba the Hutt scenes at the beginning of ROTJ -- filled with the laughter of Salacious B. Crumb -- than I do from watching Darth Vader's internal struggle when deciding whether or not to save his son from the hands of the emperor.

Don't get me wrong: I certainly enjoy the more serious aspects of the films, but what I most look forward to is Lapti Nek in ROTJ, not the Battle of Hoth in TESB.

I understand how you view the films and see why Yub Nub doesn't meet your expectations. Considering my POV, do you see why it exceeds mine?

Owen had to raise Luke. It's no stretch that he had some idea of what happened to Anakin. That could have been more than enough for him to conclude that Anakin might have been better off if he'd stayed on Tatooine. And being as Owen knows beyond any shadow of a doubt that it was Obi-Wan who called Anakin away after Shmi's funeral...

They shouldn't have Anakin live on tattooine in the first place! They just lazily added that planet into the plot of every movie except ESB. 

I guess my opinion is unpopular here, but I'll repeat it again because the meat of what I'm trying to say is hidden in that big comment block in my previous post.

I love Star Wars, I really do, but I fail to see its value as anything more than a three-part morality tale with great characters, creatures, and Jim Henson Muppet-monsters.

I just don't see the point in bickering about the ROTJ plot. It fits in with the others because they're collectively just three silly little movies. That is, they're three very successful and entertaining movies, but silly little ones nonetheless. Enjoy them!

Star Wars =/= Citizen Kane

Hey, it's me. said:

AntcuFaalb said:

I guess my opinion is unpopular here, but I'll repeat it again because the meat of what I'm trying to say is hidden in that big comment block in my previous post.

I love Star Wars, I really do, but I fail to see its value as anything more than a three-part morality tale with great characters, creatures, and Jim Henson Muppet-monsters.

I just don't see the point in bickering about the ROTJ plot. It fits in with the others because they're collectively just three silly little movies. That is, they're three very successful and entertaining movies, but silly little ones nonetheless. Enjoy them!

Star Wars =/= Citizen Kane

Well on that basis theres nothing subjective or contentious about them so lets just all give up and get on with our lives. (?)

We shouldn't give up. Preserving the OOT is about preserving film history. I can think of many sillier films that deserve preservation as well.

I just have trouble understanding why someone would enjoy ROTJ less. It's a popcorn-flick just like TESB.

The three films are not literary masterpieces and they were never intended to be. Evaluating them on that basis doesn't do justice to what George Lucas was trying to achieve.

They're supposed to be entertaining like the Flash Gordon serials of yesteryear, nothing more.

AntcuFaalb said:

They're supposed to be entertaining like the Flash Gordon serials of yesteryear, nothing more.

And Raiders of the Lost Ark was supposed to be entertaining like some other silly serials of yesteryear.  But, IMO, something funny happened on the way to the final cut.  These movies, perhaps entirely by chance, all became better than the serials they emulated.  I don't disagree that the Star Wars trilogy is ultimately space opera and not some of the world's 50 most important films (But 50 most influential? Probably), but they are a damn sight better than Flash Gordon.  The term "better than the sum of its parts" I think applies fairly here.

The thing for me is that I can't separate the final product from the craft and effort that went into it.  If I can tell that a creators were just going through the motions and taking shortcuts, I can't help but enjoy the final product less, even if that product is not markedly different than that produced by creators who clearly worked their asses off.

But as I've said before, ultimately I enjoy the whole trilogy, even though none of them are in my personal top ten.  But I don't like ROTJ as well as SW or ESB.  And I don't like any Star Wars film as well as The Third Man (I think Kane is overrated...).  But I enjoy all of them in their own ways, to different degrees.

AntcuFaalb said:

Star Wars =/= Citizen Kane

I think that Star Wars (OT) is way better than Citizen Kane.

I just don't see what is so great about Citizen Kane. I mean yes it is a good film and has some amazing cinematography but I don't enjoy the story and the characters. A few useless film critics labelled it as "the best film of all time" and now people are blindly following that crap.