Ryan McAvoy said:

I think as a kid, I always just thought the X-Wings were like Spitfires and Y-Wings were like Hurricanes. Both were important parts of the (Star)war effort but one was slighty newer and more advanced.

Not so sure about ROTJ's A-wings and B-Wings. I guess they were newer fighters developed since the battle of Yavin. What the EU says on the matter is of no concern to me.

The way I read it was as the Empire tightened it's grip more star systems slipped through it's fingers and they had different ships (still beat up antiques but different beat up antiques).

And I'm not imagining stuff I'm interpreting stuff.

Gold group are to me obviously meant to be ships better suited to bombing runs with the most experienced pilots (their manner is more authoritative) and pops is leading the fast fighter to fighter craft that are meant to buy the Y-Wings time.

All the Y-Wings (bar the one we see escape but don't know how) are taken out in the first run (after losing some ship in dogfights over the surface).

Then the more experienced but sort of second class of experienced X-wing pilots are taken out.

Leading to Biggs and Wedge visibly doubting their chances.

Only the kids are left and the kids are being led by the cockiest kid who has the Force as his friend.

Wedge is forced to leave, Biggs dies, Artoo is blown up, Luke is about to buy the big one and Han comes back.

It's the perfect building up of tension and totally believable in a way that almost nothing in ROTJ is.

At that point Luke probably has more confidence than Biggs and Wedge since the senile old squadron leader just put the rookie in charge as his last dying wish, over the two of them. Luke's ego would be soaring and Biggs and Wedge would just be left feeling deflated, inadequate and unable to understand what they did so wrong?

xD

Look they are just jealous because the voices talk to him.

Bingowings said:

Look they are just jealous because the voices talk to him.

LMAO

Would love to see the scene between the hanger bay jubilations and the medal ceremony where everyone comes down from their high and General Dodonna asks Luke...

"So what was that business with you switching off your targetting computer?"

and Luke says...

"A voice in my head told me to"

General Dodonna whispers to one of his aides...

"Don't write that bit down, if the press get hold of it, it could seriously damage our financial support in the Atheist star systems"

Bingowings said:

Threepio is Luke's property and like Han is attached to the Falcon, Luke is attached to Threepio.

Han could have kept the door shut on the droid but for a small bit of added effort he salvaged the droid from certain doom.

That's not the same as deliberately bringing him on a mission in a forest where his skills wouldn't seem to be useful (though they do turn out to be) and where his physical appearance and personality would be an impediment to success.

The stormtroopers were inside Hoth base at that time. By going back to pick up the useless robot, Han directly risked his life. Plus he had completely no use in ESB (yes he did tell the hyperdrive was broken but that didn't really help in any way). At least by brining him on Ednor he didn't directly risk his life and 3PO turned out to be crucial to rebel success on Ednor.

If this wasn't a fantasy film, 3PO would be painted and wearing camouflage. But this is Star Wars we are talking about. You have to turn a blind eye sometimes otherwise the primary thing that should bother you is the unrealistic homogeneous gravity field on all ships.

Bingowings said:

Alderaan has no weapons, they may buy them on the black market and funnel them to the Alliance but they would have to be hand me downs or in rare cases (like the Tydirium) stolen imperial equipment.

Anyone capable of making fighters would be nationalised by the Empire.

It wasn't just Alderaan who was supporting the rebels. Clearly they had many supporters, judging from imperial officer's conversations (Tagge, Jir).

And it is not like rebels bought out a star fighter factory on stock market lol. They secretly hired engineers and build their own factory hidden somewhere safe.

Han didn't go back for Threepio, he went back for Leia.

He opened the door and kept the ramp down just long enough for him to get inside.

If he had kept the door shut and legged it nothing different would have happened other than Threepio being blasted into outer darkness and Han knowing a little less about how his ship worked.

He would however have to explain to Luke why he left one of the few links with his dead step-parents.

He will also have to answer to Artoo (and I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of a sentient Swiss army knife.

I get accused of imagining plot points but there is at no point any mention or hint of secret Rebel fighter factories or any private company secretly supplying the Rebels with brand new ships.

If you want to believe that. It's your interpretation of the story which I can't see fitting as well as those ships being beat up ancient relics from Star Wars gone by.

Yes Star Wars is fantasy it can have magic but it should still follow the rules of common sense.

If the rebels are wearing camouflage they clearly don't want to be seen.

If they are creeping around giving each other hand gestures they don't want to be heard.

So bringing a brightly coloured, reflective, loud, panicky butlerdroid to a forest moon makes no sense at all (it pays off but they had no way of knowing that).

It breaks the fantasy if the writers don't take their imagined world seriously.

It also breaks it when references to the Wizard Of Oz, Tarzan and Stepin Fetchit are shoe-horned into the mix.

I don't want to be reminded I'm in a cinema down the road when I should be in a galaxy far, far away.

Which took about the same amount of time it would have taken to walk passed him.

So I guess it's just me but it seems that there's so much over complication going on here about Luke's credibility. It's very simple and already in the original presentation of the Star Wars film.

Ben Kenobi mentions Luke's Father being a good pilot. We can assume he's a good pilot too. Luke goes on the journey to rescue Princess Leia. Leia knows Ben, goes with Luke(and Han) after being told that they're with Ben. Leia sees Ben die and Luke being devastated. Luke obviously knew Ben pretty well. Luke demonstrates his shooting ability upon their escape. It's not out of the question that Leia vouched for his credibility upon arrival. Maybe even under the assumption that Ben taught him to fly.

Boom simple, the original film already has a good enough reason for why Luke was allowed to join the space battle. No need to over complicate things with the EU, SE, radio drama stuff.

Luke is part of the successful rescue of the Princess and the Death Star plans. At that point he's not just some farm boy.

Just because Han bickers with Threepio doesn't mean he hates him and wants him to die. I used to have fierce arguments with my brother at every available oportunity (Some I'm sure about Star Wars lol) growing up but I'd still go into a burning building to save him. Han would easily risk his life to save Threepio as he's one of 'the gang'.

I doubt if Han would risk his life for Threepio like he would Chewie or Leia but he wouldn't let him be destroyed if it took the same amount of effort to allow him to be salvaged.

Similarly I don't think he will just bring him along because he enjoys pulling silly faces at him.

Bingowings said:

Which took about the same amount of time it would have taken to walk passed him.

Passed him? Han was in front of him. He already went toward the ship while 3PO was locked out. He came back when 3PO was knocking on the doors. It may take him only 15 seconds, but that's a lot considering the situation.

No it isn't.

For someone who accuses me of going out of my way to pick holes in things you are having a run with this.

You like Return Of The Jedi and the PT more than most. There's no crime in it.

It's not immoral to be one of those people.

I am not for the reasons I state.

Feel free to stay on my back though as I'm having oodles of fun with you.

Bingowings said:

You like Return Of The Jedi and the PT more than most. There's no crime in it.

I like ROTJ about the same as anyone else (my reference is IMDb score). It is you who likes it less the most. :)

As for the prequels, I don't know where are you got that idea. My signature should be a good clue how much I like the prequels.

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

You like Return Of The Jedi and the PT more than most. There's no crime in it.

I like ROTJ about the same as anyone else (my reference is IMDb score). It is you who likes it less the most. :)

As for the prequels, I don't know where are you got that idea. My signature should be a good clue how much I like the prequels.

I think Bingo's statement is about right. Generally speaking people seem to hold ROTJ in a low/lower regard.

That's why I started this thread. As a ROTJ lover I wanted to know why. I know I like ROTJ "more than most" that's the point.

Ryan McAvoy said:

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

You like Return Of The Jedi and the PT more than most. There's no crime in it.

I like ROTJ about the same as anyone else (my reference is IMDb score). It is you who likes it less the most. :)

As for the prequels, I don't know where are you got that idea. My signature should be a good clue how much I like the prequels.

I think Bingo's statement is about right. Generally speaking people seem to hold ROTJ in a low/lower regard.

That's why I started this thread. As a ROTJ lover I wanted to know why. I know I like ROTJ "more than most" that's the point.

I love it too. I was just saying if you look at IMDb score, ROTJ is in top 100 all-time. So according to that a lot of people think it is not only good film, but a great film. I don't think you will find a better reference than IMDb to use it for "generally speaking".

Which makes Bingo's statement wrong.

Hmm what about ROTJ's final battle and ending. There are actually some fans who "want" realism and originality while at the same time would prefer to see a final rebel assault on imperial capital, ending with Emperor's destruction. That is one of the biggest contradictions I have ever heard. Poor rebels attacking the imperial capital and wining is the most unrealistic ending possible, as well as the most unoriginal and banal. Every other trilogy has a dumb ending like that (LOTR, Matrix etc).

ROTJ ending is original and unique. Taking place in some remote region (unlike the usual centre of bad guys' power) and the unique, simplistic and "crude" death of the main villain are just perfect. His most trusted agent picks him up and throws him into the shaft. Again, perfect.

Well the battle is still a bit unrealistic but that is as far as we can really go with it (considering it is a fantasy trilogy). The only more realistic thing would be Emperor dying of a heart attack and the empire collapsing as a result of in-fighting.

Oh I appreciate I hold ROTJ in lower regard than the norm but that is equally perverted.

It's ending is practically ANH merged with the end of ESB but with more bells and whistles and less impact.

Imperials and Rebels brought together by attempting to create the impression that the Rebels have got away with secret information Scot Free CHECK

Isolated forested moon CHECK

Planet Killing Space Station CHECK

Fighters wiggling through a metal Labyrinth to blow up a reactor CHECK.

Vader and Luke fighting in an industrial space with web shaped windows CHECK

Luke fights valiantly but is ultimately overwhelmed in the last minute CHECK.

Hand comes off CHECK

Someone goes down a bloody great hole in the floor CHECK.

Space station goes poof. ¡BANG!

Celebramos CHECK.

I give up on you, Bingo. :)

Probably wise :-D

Bingowings said:

Isolated forested moon CHECK

Planet Killing Space Station CHECK

Fighters wiggling through a metal Labyrinth to blow up a reactor CHECK.

Vader and Luke fighting in an industrial space with web shaped windows CHECK

Luke fights valiantly but is ultimately overwhelmed in the last minute CHECK.

Hand comes off CHECK

Someone goes down a bloody great hole in the floor CHECK.

Space station goes poof. ¡BANG!

Celebramos CHECK.

The Endor is presented in a completely different context. One of the difference is Rebels are the attacking force here. The other is that Yavin was never mentioned or implied to be remote (Dantooine was remote).

Of course there was a planet killing station. Should imps start to build refrigerators instead?

If there is a station... of course it is going to be blown up. It doesn't take genius to figure that one out.

Web shaped windows... give me a break. They seem to be common.

Hand comes off to reflect Luke taking revenge on Vader and signifies that if he will continue on his present course he will become just like him (replace him). You should stay away from stuff like this. I think it may be too deep and complex for you. :D

The two "holes" have no connection to each other. Completely unrelated. That is much like saying people wear cloths in both films...

Sorry I couldn't help myself. :D