Discussion started on this page: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Complete-Comparison-of-Special-Edition-Visual-Changes/topic/11927/page/45/ decided to move it to this thread, so we don't fill that thread with these '77 print variations.

TServo2049 said:

Since the ITV version looks to be an in-house transfer, the film print they received was most likely Academy flat (i.e., the film was unsqueezed and cropped using an optical printer, so the print itself was P&S), but who knows what element it might have been derived from?

If only someone could track down one of those flat 16mm prints that used to appear on eBay, that might answer some of the questions.

Actually, now that I think about it, the presence of the clouds on the ITV print actually makes some sense - remember, it also lacks the Tantive burn marks, which means that the picture might have been derived from the same, or at least a similar, film source as the official video masters of the era. (I wonder if it has some of the same damage, like maybe those dark blobs during the saber training...)

If it was a cropped print, the presence of the mono mix isn't really an enigma, Fox or Lucasfilm or whoever likely just combined the mono soundtrack with the cropped picture element.

One key difference is that, though I believe it has the Episode IV crawl, it has the 1977 flyover, meaning the edit point is right after the crawl instead of at the end of the flyover as it usually is.

 

All good points, will need to check with Russ if he can provide more examples from that ITV recording. I keep forgetting it didn't have the Tantive corridor marks. It's also a damn weird place to splice in the '81 crawl, maybe there was damage involved.

TServo2049 said:

Here's what Catnap looks like:

It has the clouds. Not surprising, it shares a lot of printed-in damage and splices with the Puggo Grande print, so both 16mm prints must have been made off the same internegative.

EDIT: Here's Starkiller/MeBeJedi, or at least this is the version I could find on Usenet. I did some hue/saturation correction, but this is the best I could get out of the who-knows-what'th-generation quality:

Well, that's just great. Due to the generation loss and the digital macroblocking (not really visible in this frame), I can't TELL whether or not the clouds are there! My instincts say they aren't, but it's so degraded that the planet just looks like a big blob of color.

Does anybody at least have a copy of this bootleg without the macroblocking, or is this it?

Yes, the Catnap had already been checked, I posted my find some time ago in the other thread. Mallwalker sent me a clip from the Starkiller boot some time ago, even with his IVTC on it, it was impossible to tell for sure but just like you, my instincts tells me it's the cloudless. Another that cannot be determined is Puggo's Swedish 16mm, blown out highlights.

TServo2049 said:

EDIT: Here's Starkiller/MeBeJedi, or at least this is the version I could find on
Usenet.

I'm confused by that statement, since there's two on usenet.
One is called MeBeJedi, the other called the Starkiller.
Which is that you're showing ?

TServo2049 said:

Does anybody at least have a copy of this bootleg without the macroblocking, or is this it?

Depending upon your answer to my previous question, try the other one?
Try the one which doesn't have bitrate allocated for LPCM soundtrack?
I'm just thinking out loud...

hey none, your pm box is full...... 

Thanks TServo! Added.

Interesting, even if I live in the PAL-region I'm not familiar with what the sources was that they used for PAL video releases over the years. This French LD would be nice to get preserved even if the transfer/master itself was subpar, must be the only widescreen transfer of SW that hasn't been preserved around here yet.

Wasn't there someone on this forum who owned the German pre-THX LD?

TServo2049 said:

Andrea also told me that the French Pyramid LD doesn't have the Tantive burn marks. So apparently, this film source had no burn marks AND no clouds, as well as having the Greedo subtitles (since they had to switch to a different, vastly inferior print for the clean Greedo scene - go figure, the JSC already had it clean and it didn't look like a dark, purple-tinted mess).

It just gets more confusing...

Yeah, we now have basically all the combinations possible with these masters, seems like they did get it right for this master though, as the early composite with clouds was probably meant to be replaced for good when new prints were made in '77. I don't really get why they dropped the cloud element if they redid the shot? It is very likely the one with clouds were on opening day prints but perhaps it was actually done by ILM after the other one. I don't know, seems more natural to add elements to the fx-shot than to remove them, the X-wing elements disappeared for one frame on the cloudless composite but other than that it was fine, it's nothing you see in motion anyway. I find it quite amazing that both this shot and the credit roll were updated at all, such minor things...

^ which reminds me... http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/star-wars-lost-footage.html

Floating around the black market limbo of sci-fi conventions and
fanboy heaven is a forgotten bootleg of "Star Wars," a film transfer
of the original 1977 theatrical release. It's interesting mainly as a
curiosity, because the transfer is awful, the image is cropped poorly,
and I'm sure that we all have much better, legal copies lying around.
Nevertheless, as an account of the minor changes made to "Star Wars"
over the years, it's priceless.

*Video differences:

First, the tape isn't really panned and scanned. It's panned all
right, but not scanned--the picture just sits on the center of the
widescreen frame. The only video difference I could find was in the
opening scroll. Not only was the "Episode IV: A New Hope" tag missing,
but the lines were formatted differently.

ely2b@aol.com adds:

Oddly enough, there is ONE visual difference. As the stormtroopers
are distracted by the duel between Vader and Kenobi, Threepio turns
and says, "Come on, Artoo. We're going." CUT to Han who says, "Now's
our chance, go!" In the version with the mono mix, these two shots are
reversed!

 

Can there be any truth to that statement? and is the bootleg discussed there the same source as Starkiller / MeBeJedi / TWC326 ?

exactly,

if it's a reversed scene.

probably bootleggers not knowing what they did

or something like that.

 

later

-1

I know this may sound crazy, but considering all of the glue marks on the JSC (at the end of almost every shot (not scene) change) and the differences in certain shots in our oldest known sources, is it possible that early generations of the film were kept as many separate pieces and reassembled to strike new masters?

TServo2049 said:

So in short, no, there is absolutely no truth to that statement. Myth busted, case closed.

Yeah, I very much assumed that statement was false, but figured I might as well bring it up when we have that bootleg source available. ;)

AntcuFaalb said:

I know this may sound crazy, but considering all of the glue marks on the JSC (at the end of almost every shot (not scene) change) and the differences in certain shots in our oldest known sources, is it possible that early generations of the film were kept as many separate pieces and reassembled to strike new masters?

Why the '82 IP whatever it is, was given such a quick and dirty glue job is anyone's guess. One things for sure, it doesn't represent what's seen on the theatrical prints in terms of splice glue.

We have this statement, taken from Kaminski's article http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/savingstarwars.html (believe the source is American Cinematographer);  "Star Wars was a popular film, and over the years so many theatrical prints were made that the IPs/INs got worn out, and new ones had to be made. The last one made was in 1985, intended to be a master copy for home video releases."

I guess they simply meant the last one was made in 1982. In '92 for the widescreen video releases they suddenly decided to dig up a worn out early generation IP (Technidisc / Definitive Collection / Faces). I don't get why the IP's were so worn out, isn't it mostly the IN's that gets worn out for making new prints? IP's are rarely touched the way I understand it.

Another interesting discovery is that the source used for the UK '91 or '92 SWE tapes appears not to be that glue party of a 80's home video master.

^ Based on that shot I would've thought it was the PAL equivalent of the JSC/SWE but Russ confirmed it doesn't have the dirty frames seen on that source:

In reel three in the 80's home video master, there is some dirty frames that appears to be caused by some kind of liquid.

"Sorry about the mess."

Docking Bay 94

"...but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful source..."

Also clearly seen in Luke's lightsaber practice scenes after he puts on the helmet. Ejaculation perhaps? ;)

Not in the 80's ITV-broadcast print either. Maybe it was cleaned up for that UK video release but I doubt it.

TServo2049 said:

Very very interesting. I had also assumed it was sourced from the same transfer, since it seemed to be converted from NTSC. Back in 2005, Russ Dawson and another user both noted that the '91 releases ran longer than the other PAL versions, and the '91 LBX release of Empire definitely looks to be a straight copy of the JSC/SWE transfer.

Does this also mean that the '91 doesn't have the shrinking ratio problem? And if it's a different transfer from a different print, why wouldn't it be a made-for-PAL transfer with 4% speedup?

Are we 100% sure that the "shrinking ratio" version also had the glued splices and weird blobs?

The "shrinking ratio" version should be the same as the Technidisc. Check msycamore's preservation. (I can't, as I'm not home right now.)

TServo2049 said:

No, the Technidisc version was specifically made to correct the shrinking ratio issue. It's a different transfer of a different film element (the same one transferred for the Definitive Collection/GOUT).

Oh, I thought it was a different (corrected) transfer of the same film element as the other Special Widescreen Edition.

So it uses the same master as the DC, but without the DVNR?

TServo2049 said:

Same film element as the DC, different video transfer. The color balance is different, the framing is different, etc.

... and no DVNR, right? :-D

TServo2049 said:

Very very interesting. I had also assumed it was sourced from the JSC/SWE transfer, since it seemed to be converted from NTSC. Back in 2005, Russ Dawson and another user both noted that the '91 releases ran longer than the other PAL versions, and the '91 LBX release of Empire definitely looks to be a straight copy of the JSC/SWE transfer. If they were new transfers for PAL, why wouldn't they be 4% faster like the other releases?

I'm also noticing that the bottom of the pylon is cut off compared to the JSC, and the widescreen image has an AR of about 2.55:1. That suggests that this '91 UK widescreen release was sourced from the SWE "shrinking ratio" version.

That doesn't make sense with what you just said - didn't the "shrinking ratio" SWE still have the glue? One of Mallwalker's JSC/SWE comparisons clearly showed splice glue in both versions. I thought the SWE was just the JSC version modified to remove the Japanese hardsubs - wasn't that the cause of the "shrinking ratio" in the first place?

Can someone check the "shrinking ratio" version and see if it also has the blobs on reel 3? Also, it'd be nice to see a screenshot of the X-wing takeoff scene, to compare the framing to the '91 UK widescreen VHS.

Good eye, the '91 UK SWE VHS seems to match the "shrinking ratio" SWE LD. And yes, the "shrinking ratio" LD is the same source as the JSC, glue marks and damage is all present on that one as well. So I thought Russ maybe gave me wrong information and maybe checked his '94 tape instead when I read your post, but he had given me yet another PM where he clearly says that the liquid damage isn't visible on his '91 tape... weird. He said he is going to post screenshots from it.

What exactly is the '94 UK Digitally Remastered tape, I assumed this was the PAL regions first THX mastered release but no such info on the case, it says new PAL masters were used on the back of the covers. What's the story, did this transfer go through any DVNR? And is there any differences between the individual '95 tape and the one in the Executor box set?

Just for the sake of it, SWE "Shrinking Ratio" LD: