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Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
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Max_Rebo
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The great blue elephant of the sky
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
This thread is for the discussion of my 97 Special Edition preservation following on from the discussion that started in this thread. (mainly pages 6 - 8)
My intention is to use the best available materials to put together a best possible version of the 97 SE. The main reason for doing this is that to me this is now the version of these films that is least likely to ever get a proper release, and in my opinion they aren't as bad as the dvd versions.
For various reasons I am starting by doing ESB using the video from the TB and GKAR sets as a source (both are PAL), to my knowledge these are the only two anamorphic sources available, and conveniently they are based of the same master so are very easy to cut between. The audio will be both 2.0 and 5.1(from the laserdiscs) and there will be both NTSC and PAL DVD-5 versions.
Some examples of the relative quality of the two sources:
As you can see the TB version is much better but unfortunately it has a few missing frames and encoding errors so these are being filled in with the GKAR footage. So far the video file comprises of only 18 frames from the GKAR (not including the credits) which fill in missing/damaged frames and only one of those frames is noticeable when you watch it and will require some colour correcting.
The only other video problem I have so far noticed is the starfield in the opening shot of the TB just disappears as the camera pans down so I will need to fix this shot:
The GKAR set doesn't suffer from this problem but obviously I can't use the whole shot from the GKAR as the crawl is in German, also this is the only shot of the film that isn't framed the same in the two versions so I can't simply cut from one to the other, it shouldn't be to difficult to fix I just haven't got around to it yet. All in all the TB set is pretty weak for starfields, but the GKAR set has been excessively filtered so the stars blur on pans (except for this shot) so either way the stars wont look as good as we'd like, but I'll do my best.
After ESB I will do ANH for which there should be a couple more anamorphic sources available (although I only have the TB and GKAR at present) and then ROTJ for which I currently only have the GKAR and some of the TB.
I think that basically covers it but it's late here and I'm tired so I might not be making any sense so feel free to ask questions.
My intention is to use the best available materials to put together a best possible version of the 97 SE. The main reason for doing this is that to me this is now the version of these films that is least likely to ever get a proper release, and in my opinion they aren't as bad as the dvd versions.
For various reasons I am starting by doing ESB using the video from the TB and GKAR sets as a source (both are PAL), to my knowledge these are the only two anamorphic sources available, and conveniently they are based of the same master so are very easy to cut between. The audio will be both 2.0 and 5.1(from the laserdiscs) and there will be both NTSC and PAL DVD-5 versions.
Some examples of the relative quality of the two sources:
As you can see the TB version is much better but unfortunately it has a few missing frames and encoding errors so these are being filled in with the GKAR footage. So far the video file comprises of only 18 frames from the GKAR (not including the credits) which fill in missing/damaged frames and only one of those frames is noticeable when you watch it and will require some colour correcting.
The only other video problem I have so far noticed is the starfield in the opening shot of the TB just disappears as the camera pans down so I will need to fix this shot:
The GKAR set doesn't suffer from this problem but obviously I can't use the whole shot from the GKAR as the crawl is in German, also this is the only shot of the film that isn't framed the same in the two versions so I can't simply cut from one to the other, it shouldn't be to difficult to fix I just haven't got around to it yet. All in all the TB set is pretty weak for starfields, but the GKAR set has been excessively filtered so the stars blur on pans (except for this shot) so either way the stars wont look as good as we'd like, but I'll do my best.
After ESB I will do ANH for which there should be a couple more anamorphic sources available (although I only have the TB and GKAR at present) and then ROTJ for which I currently only have the GKAR and some of the TB.
I think that basically covers it but it's late here and I'm tired so I might not be making any sense so feel free to ask questions.
wookielover69
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Padawan Learner
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Hi Max sounds like a interesting project and I wish you all the best, I think that it is important to preserve this version to show the progression of the film through the years.
As your source for the video is PAL does this mean that there will be a PAL version or will it be converted to NTSC?
Thanks
As your source for the video is PAL does this mean that there will be a PAL version or will it be converted to NTSC?
Thanks
Moth3r
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Muttley, do something!
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
After mentioning the Flunk release in the other thread, I've also remembered there was another transfer called the Reivax version. Again, apparently it's a professional digital beta tape transfer, but I think only ANH was ever made available. I have no idea how the quality compares.
@wookielover69: Max_Rebo stated above he will be making both PAL and NTSC versions.
From what I've gathered, the plan is to make an NTSC version by combining video converted from the PAL with the untouched Dolby Digital track off the NTSC laserdiscs (although minor edits may be required if the DVB and LD versions have differing frame counts). I assume also that Max will be making a new 5.1 mix for the PAL version by speeding up the LD audio and re-encoding a new AC3 track.
@wookielover69: Max_Rebo stated above he will be making both PAL and NTSC versions.
From what I've gathered, the plan is to make an NTSC version by combining video converted from the PAL with the untouched Dolby Digital track off the NTSC laserdiscs (although minor edits may be required if the DVB and LD versions have differing frame counts). I assume also that Max will be making a new 5.1 mix for the PAL version by speeding up the LD audio and re-encoding a new AC3 track.
Max_Rebo
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The great blue elephant of the sky
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Originally posted by: Moth3r
After mentioning the Flunk release in the other thread, I've also remembered there was another transfer called the Reivax version. Again, apparently it's a professional digital beta tape transfer, but I think only ANH was ever made available. I have no idea how the quality compares.
Ideally I'd like to get copies of the flunk and the reivax before I start on ANH, so if anyone is willing to share please send me a PM, I may also need another copy of the ROTJ TB release as mine is a bit scratched up and wont rip, but that's a way off yet.
Originally posted by: Moth3r
@wookielover69: Max_Rebo stated above he will be making both PAL and NTSC versions.
From what I've gathered, the plan is to make an NTSC version by combining video converted from the PAL with the untouched Dolby Digital track off the NTSC laserdiscs (although minor edits may be required if the DVB and LD versions have differing frame counts). I assume also that Max will be making a new 5.1 mix for the PAL version by speeding up the LD audio and re-encoding a new AC3 track.
After mentioning the Flunk release in the other thread, I've also remembered there was another transfer called the Reivax version. Again, apparently it's a professional digital beta tape transfer, but I think only ANH was ever made available. I have no idea how the quality compares.
Ideally I'd like to get copies of the flunk and the reivax before I start on ANH, so if anyone is willing to share please send me a PM, I may also need another copy of the ROTJ TB release as mine is a bit scratched up and wont rip, but that's a way off yet.
Originally posted by: Moth3r
@wookielover69: Max_Rebo stated above he will be making both PAL and NTSC versions.
From what I've gathered, the plan is to make an NTSC version by combining video converted from the PAL with the untouched Dolby Digital track off the NTSC laserdiscs (although minor edits may be required if the DVB and LD versions have differing frame counts). I assume also that Max will be making a new 5.1 mix for the PAL version by speeding up the LD audio and re-encoding a new AC3 track.
I think Moth3r hit the nail right on the head here, that's exactly the plan.
Darth Mallwalker
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THC-1138 meets TK-420
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
I've got a trilogy of AC3 files which might be worthy of a closer inspection.
They're 384kbps, which doesn't prove anything, but IIRC that's the native rate for LD format which is a good sign at least.
OTOH they're 48kHz -- was native LD AC3 also 44.1 like PCM?
No, LD AC3 was 48kHz.I've got a trilogy of AC3 files which might be worthy of a closer inspection.
They're 384kbps, which doesn't prove anything, but IIRC that's the native rate for LD format which is a good sign at least.
OTOH they're 48kHz -- was native LD AC3 also 44.1 like PCM?
Karyudo answered my question @doom9 way back in 2003!
However, in practice you must take into account the "fuckwit factor". Just talk to Darth Mallwalker...
-Moth3r
wookielover69
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Padawan Learner
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Sorry guys my bad completely missed that one.
reave
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FE<3OT
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
So then, what is the status on this project? I don't know why I want a preservation of the 97 SE so bad. I guess because it is a part of the SW story.
ThrowgnCpr
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Back off man... I'm a scientist.
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
I am the same way reave. ...looking forward to this
starwarsfan8376
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Padawan Learner
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Dittos from me too... the 97 SE is just a footnote in the SW Saga, but it is important that it be preserved.
Sojourn
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Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
I know for me, it was also the one I watched the most when I was younger, so it has a warm place in my heart. The SE VHS set was the first copy of Star Wars I owned. 
Take care,
Sojourn
Take care,
Sojourn
Max_Rebo
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The great blue elephant of the sky
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Originally posted by: Sojourn
I know for me, it was also the one I watched the most when I was younger, so it has a warm place in my heart. The SE VHS set was the first copy of Star Wars I owned.
Same here, I don't even know how much I'll watch these it's just something I'd like to have.
Originally posted by: Reave
So then, what is the status on this project?
I know for me, it was also the one I watched the most when I was younger, so it has a warm place in my heart. The SE VHS set was the first copy of Star Wars I owned.
Same here, I don't even know how much I'll watch these it's just something I'd like to have.
Originally posted by: Reave
So then, what is the status on this project?
I haven't had the time to do much since my last post so currently the video for ESB is complete except for some colour correction on 18 frames and fixing the initial pan down from the crawl, the 2.0 audio is already in sync but I still need to sync the 5.1 (using an AC3 file provided by Darth Mallwalker which seems to be a genuine Laserdisc rip)
I think I will now do ROTJ next as I have finally managed to rip the video from my TB disc (after at least 15 attempts with 5 different disc drives) and I think it should be a fairly straight forward process.
For ANH I am still hoping to get a copy of the flunk version which was was uploaded to the newsgroups back in 2006 see here, but I will soon have a copy of the reivax (and the first layer of the flunk but I'd really like the whole thing)
I don't think anything is going to take all that long to do it's just a matter of finding the time as I'm about to move house and I'm looking for a new job.
I'll keep you all updated.
Sojourn
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Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Originally posted by: Max_Rebo
Same here, I don't even know how much I'll watch these it's just something I'd like to have.
Originally posted by: Sojourn
I know for me, it was also the one I watched the most when I was younger, so it has a warm place in my heart. The SE VHS set was the first copy of Star Wars I owned.
I know for me, it was also the one I watched the most when I was younger, so it has a warm place in my heart. The SE VHS set was the first copy of Star Wars I owned.
Same here, I don't even know how much I'll watch these it's just something I'd like to have.
Exactly.
Good luck with the move, and the job search!
Take care,
Sojourn
Max_Rebo
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The great blue elephant of the sky
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Just a quick update for those who are interested, I found a bit of time last night to do the colour correction on the few frames I'm using from the GKAR and it looks pretty good, I doubt anyone else would be able to notice them but I can still see the difference so I need to improve the Avisynth script a little, but I know what to, so that only really leaves the initial pan down to fix and then the video for ESB will be done.
Unfortunately I was playing around with the audio and I'm not convinced that the 5.1 track I have is genuine, I can't hear any separation in the rear channels which doesn't bode well so I'm looking for another source.
but on a more positive note I should soon be receiving copies of the Flunk and the Reivax.
That's it for now.
Unfortunately I was playing around with the audio and I'm not convinced that the 5.1 track I have is genuine, I can't hear any separation in the rear channels which doesn't bode well so I'm looking for another source.
but on a more positive note I should soon be receiving copies of the Flunk and the Reivax.
That's it for now.
adywan
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"Untallented and clueless to the core"
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Max_Rebo, you have a PM
Number20
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Jedi Knight
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Good luck on this and getting the 5.1 audio mix. I would love to have this as well once you are finished.
fuminggorilla8
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Padawan Learner
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
going nuts with the thought of having a digital copy of the SE editions, searched and hoped for long time.
Crygor64
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Padawan Learner
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Isn't it strange to think that the SE is the rarest of the 3 versions of the trilogy?
Seriously it was only sold for a couple of years before the 2004 Box set was released, which brought major changes and made the SE obsolete.
Anyway, Best of Luck with this Max.
Seriously it was only sold for a couple of years before the 2004 Box set was released, which brought major changes and made the SE obsolete.
Anyway, Best of Luck with this Max.
bkev
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Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Keep in mind my sourse is not very reliable at all (a random youtube comment), but has the '97 version ever been shown on a channel like Cinemax?
skyjedi2005
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Jedi Knight
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
hey i already pointed out that the real 5.1 is on the us laserdisc boxset release of the 1997 special edition.
i'm sure their are plenty of people on these boards who lnow how to extract an ac3 soundtrack from a laserdisc.
i know that several people have used a 5.1 mix from 1997 from the special edition of a new hope, and that the audio files once were online in newsgroups and torrents and if no longer there you can ask people on these boards for help.
as for empire and jedi i have never heard of anyone using the 1997 mixes from the laserdiscs for their projects as a whole, other than taking bits and pieces like ocp movie did to recreate some of the 70mm sound mix differences.
i'm sure their are plenty of people on these boards who lnow how to extract an ac3 soundtrack from a laserdisc.
i know that several people have used a 5.1 mix from 1997 from the special edition of a new hope, and that the audio files once were online in newsgroups and torrents and if no longer there you can ask people on these boards for help.
as for empire and jedi i have never heard of anyone using the 1997 mixes from the laserdiscs for their projects as a whole, other than taking bits and pieces like ocp movie did to recreate some of the 70mm sound mix differences.
"Always loved Vader's wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin's ghost. What a fucking shame." -Simon Pegg.
Dunedain
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Padawan Learner
RE: Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Max_Rebo: Any update on how things are going? :) This is one of the best looking Star Wars preservation projects ever, really looking forward to watching these. :)
The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.
Max_Rebo
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The great blue elephant of the sky
RE: Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Dunedain said:
Max_Rebo: Any update on how things are going? :) This is one of the best looking Star Wars preservation projects ever, really looking forward to watching these. :)
Max_Rebo: Any update on how things are going? :) This is one of the best looking Star Wars preservation projects ever, really looking forward to watching these. :)
Unfortunately there isn't much going on at the moment, real life is really getting in the way, I don't think it will take me too long I just need to find some time to get some more done.
It is still at the top of my to do list so I'll let you all know when I do make some progress.
Cheers
Molly
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U u uwa uwa...
RE: Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Hm. Anyone got sources for the underlying videos?
I might attempt a best of breed raw/ntsc anamorphic myself, but I recall torrents of these rips (e.g., G'kar, Reivax) aren't exactly easy to come by.
I might attempt a best of breed raw/ntsc anamorphic myself, but I recall torrents of these rips (e.g., G'kar, Reivax) aren't exactly easy to come by.
"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)
Max_Rebo
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The great blue elephant of the sky
RE: Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
I have been doing a bit of work on this over the last week so I can post a bit of an update.
I have synced up the two sources for ROTJ and for this film the GKAR is a much better transfer (see screenshots) and the TB has missing frames again.
So a quick summary of where I am at the moment:
ESB is mainly taken from the TB with about 17 frames taken from the GKAR to fill in the few missing/corrupt frames. This is currently synced with a 256kbps AC3 English stereo track.
ROTJ is mainly taken from the GKAR except for the title crawl and all the shots which had Hard German subs in the GKAR which have all been replaced with the corresponding frames from the TB. This is also synced with a 256kbps AC3 English stereo track.
ANH at the moment looks like it will be based mainly on the GKAR with the TB used to replace the title crawl and subtitled scenes, but I'm still hoping to get some other sources which might prove to be a bit better.
As mentioned in the first post the starfields on these transfers are not good, and I have tried a few things to fix them but I can't improve them without introducing other problems so I think I will leave them as they are, then at least we have a version as close to the source as possible.
I'm still fiddling with the colour correction on the replacement frames, I was trying to use the 'Colourlike' plugin for Avisynth but the results are not as good as I hoped so I'm going to write my own plugin along similar lines but doing things slightly differently, which will hopefully give a better match.
I think that's it for now but I'll keep you all informed.
I don't know if these versions have ever had torrents, I got the GKAR and TB in trades a couple of years ago but the flunk and Reivax are even harder to come by.
I have synced up the two sources for ROTJ and for this film the GKAR is a much better transfer (see screenshots) and the TB has missing frames again.
So a quick summary of where I am at the moment:
ESB is mainly taken from the TB with about 17 frames taken from the GKAR to fill in the few missing/corrupt frames. This is currently synced with a 256kbps AC3 English stereo track.
ROTJ is mainly taken from the GKAR except for the title crawl and all the shots which had Hard German subs in the GKAR which have all been replaced with the corresponding frames from the TB. This is also synced with a 256kbps AC3 English stereo track.
ANH at the moment looks like it will be based mainly on the GKAR with the TB used to replace the title crawl and subtitled scenes, but I'm still hoping to get some other sources which might prove to be a bit better.
As mentioned in the first post the starfields on these transfers are not good, and I have tried a few things to fix them but I can't improve them without introducing other problems so I think I will leave them as they are, then at least we have a version as close to the source as possible.
I'm still fiddling with the colour correction on the replacement frames, I was trying to use the 'Colourlike' plugin for Avisynth but the results are not as good as I hoped so I'm going to write my own plugin along similar lines but doing things slightly differently, which will hopefully give a better match.
I think that's it for now but I'll keep you all informed.
Molly said:
Hm. Anyone got sources for the underlying videos?
I might attempt a best of breed raw/ntsc anamorphic myself, but I recall torrents of these rips (e.g., G'kar, Reivax) aren't exactly easy to come by.
Hm. Anyone got sources for the underlying videos?
I might attempt a best of breed raw/ntsc anamorphic myself, but I recall torrents of these rips (e.g., G'kar, Reivax) aren't exactly easy to come by.
I don't know if these versions have ever had torrents, I got the GKAR and TB in trades a couple of years ago but the flunk and Reivax are even harder to come by.
Last edited on May 26, 2008 at 6:57 AM by Max_Rebo
bkev
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RE: Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
In ESB, there's an issue of macroblocking with G'Kar. Does this still exist in ROTJ?
Max_Rebo
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The great blue elephant of the sky
RE: Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
bkev said:
In ESB, there's an issue of macroblocking with G'Kar. Does this still exist in ROTJ?
In ESB, there's an issue of macroblocking with G'Kar. Does this still exist in ROTJ?
I haven't noticed any in ROTJ or ANH yet, but there are a few encoding errors which effect individual frames here and there, of course I'll do my best to find and replace all offending frames.
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Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation
Max_Rebo's '97 SE superset' preservation