TheBoost said:

Given that Lucas has been overwhelmingly a director interested in visuals and technical processes I think it's baseless, bordering on silly, to say that the use of CGI is motivated by greed.

While it indeed might be cheaper to use CGI backgrounds rather than location shooting or extremely extensive sets (since most of the PT locations could not actually be found on Earth), I fail to see why Lucas is

• obligated to go a more expensive route on his self-funded picture lest he be called 'greedy.'
• forbidden from using the technology he developed for this very purpose.

 

Also, using the PT to "showcase" his technology kind of ignore the facts that

1. ILM had been a gold standard of SFX for decades, hiring out to do all sorts of films.
2. There's nothing that revolutionary in the PT that the industry wasn't already gearing up for and didn't know ILM (and other FX houses) was already capable of.

 

As for your moralizing at the end there, George Lucas made some of the greatest films of all time, including four films already in the Library of Congress and on the AFI Top 100. Nothing can take that away from him. And as for his few extra bucks, the PT made almost 3 billion dollars in box office alone.

So let me honestly ask... if Geonosis had been shot on location somewhere, would the AOTC plots somehow not have sucked? If the Gungan City had been an actual set would Jar-Jar have not been annoying? If Mustafar had been real, would the Anakin/Padme romance have worked dramatically? I think what you're complaining about it meaningless when compared to why the movies were actually not good.

   Your points in debating with haljordan are well taken...

That being said:

One good reason for Lucas to NOT use CGI:  to ensure that the PT at least look like it took place BEFORE the OT, (like a prequel should) and not like it took place AFTER it.     (Or, to paraphrase Howard Kazanjian circa 2005,  the PT looks like 'World War IV' to the OT's 'World War II',  contrary to plans made during the early 80's when he and Lucas had discussed the backstory, in which the PT was said to be like 'World War I'  in technological/visual aspects compared to the CT that they were working on. )

In terms of space battles the one at the end of TPM looks WWI to ANH's WWII (colourful simple fighter craft /less colouful gritty fighter craft ).

The problem isn't so much in the design but it the writing.

Bingowings said:

In terms of space battles the one at the end of TPM looks WWI to ANH's WWII (colourful simple fighter craft /less colouful gritty fighter craft ).

The problem isn't so much in the design but it the writing.

Maybe it's not so much the specific look* of the fighter crafts but rather the execution of the battles that makes it hard for me to believe/accept that TPM is supposed to be 'before' SW/ANH.

*even taking into consideration your color analogy, there's still a problem, though: we should have at least seen Y-Wings in the PT,  since during the OT days the film makers involved were saying that they looked so 'beat-up' because they were in fact older craft than the X-wings....

It's a shame that the fresh off the production line Y-Wings only appear in The Clone Wars animated show but they would still be a design from the last days of the war.

Concorde still looks like the future now and that was a product of sixties engineering and is now obsolete.

As for the compositional language there in lies a multitude of problems.

The Rebellion seen in the OT is a coalition of many groups with largely customised out of date hardware, running a series of guerrilla campaigns against a single uniform, well equipped navy.

The two forces of the PT have both got up to date hardware and are fighting large scale battles against each other.

If the PT is a World War the OT is more a series of bushfire skirmishes.

That is going to dictate a different visual language.

The Bantha in the room is obviously that the two film series were created decades apart.

It is arguable that making a film set (not that long) in the past of the same fictional universe but with larger scale battles would create stylistic problems even if the technology being used to make them was the same.

If anything the OT looks more epic which in a way is all wrong considering the nature of the conflicts described in the story.

RLM is correct in pointing out that the PT is a film series made by a mostly seated director about characters who are mostly seated.

The larger scale war of the PT lacks any of the emotional and visual impact of the smaller scale war of the OT.

If you look at the WWI battle scenes in The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles you get a better idea of what the PT could have been like with more modern techniques.

Love or hate the series those scenes really did feel like a war and not like a cartoon, as much because the audience had time to connect to the characters as the sequences were depictions of a real life tragedy.

However the characters were certainly more kinetic than in the PT and in a more realistic fashion when they were.

The fisticuffs in the PT felt more like dancing than fighting and having battles between duplicate men and duplicate robots didn't cook up much of an emotional connection with this viewer.

Doesn't this thread tell us something we already knew?

Most of them do to be honest.

In defense of some the PT designs I found this interesting bit of vintage future over on Boing Boing (looks rather familiar imagine the PT version being used in a context you could care about though):

TheBoost said:

Bocce_Linguist said:

Bingowings said:

In terms of space battles the one at the end of TPM looks WWI to ANH's WWII (colourful simple fighter craft /less colouful gritty fighter craft ).

The problem isn't so much in the design but it the writing.

Maybe it's not so much the specific look* of the fighter crafts but rather the execution of the battles that makes it hard for me to believe/accept that TPM is supposed to be 'before' SW/ANH.

*even taking into consideration your color analogy, there's still a problem, though: we should have at least seen Y-Wings in the PT,  since during the OT days the film makers involved were saying that they looked so 'beat-up' because they were in fact older craft than the X-wings....

I can see both sides of this, but ultimately it seems to me that the choice to not even care that the PT didn't really look earlier than the OT (except smaller Star Destroyers) is a creative choice, not a technical one. Whatever design choices would have successfully made the PT look a generation earlier than the OT could have been acheived in CGI.

(on the other hand, if the Republic has already stood for a thousand generations, how much technological advance do we expect to see in 20 years?)

 

  Then again,  if audiences were never actually going to 'see' those "thousand generations",   I don't think the proposed World War-style  technological advance via 20 years would have been all that problematic.

Yeah but the Naboo Royal Air Corps is not the Republic Airflight from the last days of the Clone Wars so that allowed George and Co a degree of creative freedom to design different craft which had a totally different design ethic and obviously a chance to sell more toys (something I wouldn't have a problem with off the back of a good series of films).

My point is I don't have a problem with the design of the PT my bag is with the stories and dialogue not being well written, acted or directed.

He didn't need to spend an extra dime on that.

Darth Cracker said:

throw money at a turd and all you got is money, stuck to a turd ;-)

But will you make a return from your deposit?

TheBoost said:

Bocce_Linguist said:

Bingowings said:

In terms of space battles the one at the end of TPM looks WWI to ANH's WWII (colourful simple fighter craft /less colouful gritty fighter craft ).

The problem isn't so much in the design but it the writing.

Maybe it's not so much the specific look* of the fighter crafts but rather the execution of the battles that makes it hard for me to believe/accept that TPM is supposed to be 'before' SW/ANH.

*even taking into consideration your color analogy, there's still a problem, though: we should have at least seen Y-Wings in the PT,  since during the OT days the film makers involved were saying that they looked so 'beat-up' because they were in fact older craft than the X-wings....

I can see both sides of this, but ultimately it seems to me that the choice to not even care that the PT didn't really look earlier than the OT (except smaller Star Destroyers) is a creative choice, not a technical one. Whatever design choices would have successfully made the PT look a generation earlier than the OT could have been acheived in CGI.

(on the other hand, if the Republic has already stood for a thousand generations, how much technological advance do we expect to see in 20 years?)

 

One wonders what events would have looked like 5000 years before the Star Wars movies.

Bocce_Linguist said:

Bingowings said:

In terms of space battles the one at the end of TPM looks WWI to ANH's WWII (colourful simple fighter craft /less colouful gritty fighter craft ).

The problem isn't so much in the design but it the writing.

Maybe it's not so much the specific look* of the fighter crafts but rather the execution of the battles that makes it hard for me to believe/accept that TPM is supposed to be 'before' SW/ANH.

*even taking into consideration your color analogy, there's still a problem, though: we should have at least seen Y-Wings in the PT,  since during the OT days the film makers involved were saying that they looked so 'beat-up' because they were in fact older craft than the X-wings....

The Y-Wings have actually shown up on The Clone Wars series. They even have the streamlined coverings that the Rebels eventually remove for ease of maintenance. And I'm amazed I still recall that little piece of trivia!

I have to jump and say I think a lot of you are looking past hal's point and that I think he has one.

Better artists and artisans and, shock!, paying someone talented to help write the scripts, the dialogue, and to direct would have gone a long way.  Hiring someone with the talent and the, *ahem* cajones to stand up to George when he was wrong... That would have cost more money.  Money that George apparently wasn't willing to spend.  And because of that, he has a few more bucks (maybe) than he would have had.  And a crap reputation to show for it.

It's his loss.  It's our loss.  And it sucks.

You're right.  I do feel that people have been overlooking that point.  It certainly would have served to have had some people on board who had enough clout to challenge George.  On the other hand, I can't say I disagree with the sentiment of letting "undiscovered talent" cut their teeth on these movies.  It's certainly an opportunity anyone would jump at, and, just because they haven't become huge names yet doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't be able to turn in a good product.  Again, think of the original effects crews for Star Wars.  They were recent college graduates, people who'd done some effects work for commercials, who became the backbone for the original ILM.  So while this tactic didn't do much to service these films, I certainly can't fault them for the idea.

Gaffer Tape said:

It's certainly an opportunity anyone would jump at, and, just because they haven't become huge names yet doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't be able to turn in a good product. 

I think it does.  Since they're so desperate to keep their seat at the table, I think they're less likely to try to stick their heads out far enough to get them cut off.

No, because that is based on the assumption that Lucas would be so devoid of competence that he'd need all the members of his crew to constantly challenge his ideas.  And in 1997, the general populace had little reason to believe that.  Sure it's possible that any good director is only good because his subordinates are substituting all of his talentless schlock with actual good ideas, but do you really think that the Key Grip saved Christopher Nolan from making Inception a musical comedy about the holocaust?

Oh, and that reminds me.  Aren't you ignoring me? ^_~

Fine, not the key grip.  How about the guys that designed "Dexter Jetster"?

but do you really think that the Key Grip saved Christopher Nolan from making Inception a musical comedy about the holocaust

YOU DO NOT GET TO SAY THAT NAME UNTIL YOU HAVE WATCHED IT!  NEVAR!

Oh, and that reminds me.  Aren't you ignoring me? ^_~

When it suits my purposes.

If you look back to the ROTJ Classic Creatures documentary where George is discussing Sy Snootles' lips and compare it to the ROTS Hyperspace short about designing Grievous the two bits of footage are pretty consistent.

George takes a design idea and turns it into a bit of on screen whimsy without anyone questioning if it's maybe a bit too far or countering it with other options.

These things tend to be edited to give the impression of a team all pulling in one direction so it's possible that in that footage we aren't seeing the full picture but I get the impression that at both of those periods the people around him are very nervous and perhaps a bit too eager to please.

I've been a minor player in scenarios structurally similar to those and it's more common place that you'd have people pressing the boss (tactfully) to see if the direction he is going in is where everyone should be heading and offering alternative options.

I don't feel George likes working like that and now he has the clout he has he doesn't have to.

Before then he did and perhaps that led to better decisions.