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Inconsistencies, retcons, and other problems between the PT and OT or within the PT — Page 2

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NeverarGreat said:

... the implication is that the more midichlorians a person has, the more power they have with the Force,

...and...

Vader says "the Force is with _", a practically meaningless statement considering that according to the PT, the number of midichlorians in a person's blood determines how strong they are in the Force.

Correlation doesn't prove causality.  In TPM that midichlorians were a way of measuring the force in someone, not because they cause it, but because they happen to respond to it.  It's like seeing if someone has HIV by measuring their white blood cell count -- the white blood cells aren't HIV, and they don't cause it, but they respond to it and thus can be used to measure it.

It was a stupid, stupid idea that took an age-old spiritual idea, and made it scientific and cold.  Even LFL must have realized this because they didn't mention them in prequels 2 and 3.

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

NeverarGreat said:

... the implication is that the more midichlorians a person has, the more power they have with the Force,

...and...

Vader says "the Force is with _", a practically meaningless statement considering that according to the PT, the number of midichlorians in a person's blood determines how strong they are in the Force.

Correlation doesn't prove causality.  In TPM that midichlorians were a way of measuring the force in someone, not because they cause it, but because they happen to respond to it.  It's like seeing if someone has HIV by measuring their white blood cell count -- the white blood cells aren't HIV, and they don't cause it, but they respond to it and thus can be used to measure it.

It was a stupid, stupid idea that took an age-old spiritual idea, and made it scientific and cold.  Even LFL must have realized this because they didn't mention them in prequels 2 and 3.

QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicates with the Force.
ANAKIN : They live inside of me?
QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.
ANAKIN : Symbionts?
QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the
midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force
. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.


BEN: Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy
field created by all living things.
It surrounds us and penetrates us.
It binds the galaxy together.

There are two important points in these statements.

1. The Force is created by all living things (organisms).

2. Midichlorians are life forms (that they are described as microscopic entities that can be scientifically measured implies that they are definite organisms).

According to the first two statements, Midichlorians are described as organisms, and thus create the Force.

They may not be the only organisms to create the Force, but they definitely contribute. So Midichlorians definitely cause the Force.

By the way, if Midichlorians are life forms, and life couldn't exist without them, how did they arise? Are they the fundamental unit of Life, from which all life is built? But if that's the case, wouldn't every cell be made entirely of Midichlorians? Or perhaps other forms of life were able to grow after Midichlorians arose, by operating  symbiotically with them. However, if Midichlorians were the first form of life, they would be originators of the Force, as the Force is created by all living things. Thus they would have created the Force, and would communicate the will of the Force, or the will of themselves, to other life forms. Consequently, the will of the Force is the will of a microscopic life form within all cells.

Oh wait, I forgot about the other reference to the Midichlorians:

Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life...

But...but...they would have to do that anyway, right? ...and what does that even mean...and...?!!!*^#

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:


I like it!  I'd wear a shirt like that, especially if it had a picture of CPY on it.

But CPY isn't an inconsistency... CPY is awesome.  An inconsistency is Anakin telling a senator that he just killed an entire village, and the senator not having him arrested immediately.  It would be like the Newtown kid showing up at City Hall and the mayor saying "oh, that's ok, it's human to get mad now and then".


That scene always really bothered me. Not that she isn't arresting him, but that she doesn't react at all. She goes straight to "oh, poor baby, murdering all those tuskens must have been so hard on you".

I think it could have been a really powerful scene if she reacted adversely to it at first but then came around to realizing that she loved him, and that he knew it was wrong to do. Thereby forgiving him and keeping it secret.

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On a backwater planet where slavery is still practiced, (and an explosive implant is used to keep slaves from running away) is killing a bunch of Tuskens in cold blood even a big deal? Even if Padme wanted Anakin arrested, I doubt the local authorities, (if they exist at all) would care.

Ten years after the events of TPM and it seems nobody from Coruscant is leading a "free the slaves" movement either. Not the senate nor the Jedi...

The Tusken's reputation is such they are "framed" for the Jawa slaughter in the original film. Why the stormtroopers want to avoid being fingered for local murders when the Empire is blowing up entire planets is anyone's guess. ;)

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SilverWook said:

The Tusken's reputation is such they are "framed" for the Jawa slaughter in the original film. Why the stormtroopers want to avoid being fingered for local murders when the Empire is blowing up entire planets is anyone's guess. ;)

That's a really good point, I never thought of that before.

I know it's been said a million times but to me the unforgivable inconsistency is the presence of R2 and 3p0.  R2 spends a lot of time with Kenobi and he has no memory of him in ep iv?  Vader sees 3po later and he doesn't recognize him?  It was so unnecessary to bring in Chewbacca, Greedo, Boba, Jabba etc.  Where was baby Han and Lando? At least they were spared.

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SilverWook said:

The Tusken's reputation is such they are "framed" for the Jawa slaughter in the original film. Why the stormtroopers want to avoid being fingered for local murders when the Empire is blowing up entire planets is anyone's guess. ;)

Well, there is a way to reconcile those things.  The whole point of blowing up planets was for people to know about it ("Fear will keep the local systems in line"), so obviously they're not going to cover that up.  On the other hand, while there was no way to prevent people from getting the idea that they were looking for droids (asking "How long have you had those droids?" to everyone passing by), they may have wanted to cover up the fact that they were so completely desperate to find them, lest someone say "Hey! Maybe these droids they're looking for have something valuable I can sell to the rebels."  So it's not that they're trying to cover up who the true perpetrator is, they're just trying to cover up the perpetrator's motives, and this was an easy way.  But they didn't count on the mystery-solving aptitude of Magruff the Crime Jedi!

Yeah, it's not the best explanation, but it's not the worst plot-hole either.  I give it a pass.

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CatBus said:

 

Well, there is a way to reconcile those things.  The whole point of blowing up planets was for people to know about it ("Fear will keep the local systems in line"), so obviously they're not going to cover that up.  On the other hand, while there was no way to prevent people from getting the idea that they were looking for droids (asking "How long have you had those droids?" to everyone passing by), they may have wanted to cover up the fact that they were so completely desperate to find them, lest someone say "Hey! Maybe these droids they're looking for have something valuable I can sell to the rebels."  So it's not that they're trying to cover up who the true perpetrator is, they're just trying to cover up the perpetrator's motives, and this was an easy way.  But they didn't count on the mystery-solving aptitude of Magruff the Crime Jedi!

Yeah, it's not the best explanation, but it's not the worst plot-hole either.  I give it a pass.

That is the assumption I've always made. Never even gave it a second thought. I don't even think it's a plot hole.

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It's not clear if the Lars Moisture Farm hit is made to look like Tusken slaughter or not. That would get more scrutiny than dead Jawas.

Arguably, both Artoo and Obi Wan have reasons to pretend they don't know each other from the old days. Threepio doesn't remember, and Luke would ask more questions than Ben has white lies. The Wars of The Stars edit did address this though. ;)

It's been speculated Vader prevents Boba from shooting Chewie in ESB because Threepio is on his back, but that's a stretch. A Dark Horse comic does have Vader recognize him, and he gives the order to have the blasted droid put in the cell with Chewie.

I have wondered if Artoo can see Obi Wan's ghost...

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SilverWook said:

It's been speculated Vader prevents Boba from shooting Chewie in ESB because Threepio is on his back, but that's a stretch. A Dark Horse comic does have Vader recognize him, and he gives the order to have the blasted droid put in the cell with Chewie.

I have wondered if Artoo can see Obi Wan's ghost...

Vader is ok with killing younglings, a planet full of people, his old besty Ben and his own son (the last remaining remnant of padme) but he's sympathetic to a droid that he left without hesitation as a kid??  I dunno...

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CWBorne said:

-The term "Sith" is thrown around much less and not even mentioned on screen in the OT. 

When I was a wee lad I got a Darth Vader action figure that came with a collector's coin, it had Vader's head on it and said "Dark Lord of the Sith" on it. I thought it was a real word and asked my dad what "sith" meant. I remember very clearly he was sitting in his study with his nose buried in some reference works, his massive office chair slowly spun around as he turned to face me with a puzzled look on his face. After a moment he noticed the coin in my hand and immediately said, "Oh, it's a dark Jedi" and turned back to his books.

I wonder how he knew that? I'm just now realizing how weird that is, he wasn't into Star Wars, so I have a hard time imagining him reading up on it outside of the films.

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When trying to catch up to Qui-Gon and Maul through the energy barriers, why didn't Obi-Wan run with that super speed he used to escape the droidekas?

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Brooks said:

SilverWook said:

It's been speculated Vader prevents Boba from shooting Chewie in ESB because Threepio is on his back, but that's a stretch. A Dark Horse comic does have Vader recognize him, and he gives the order to have the blasted droid put in the cell with Chewie.

I have wondered if Artoo can see Obi Wan's ghost...

Vader is ok with killing younglings, a planet full of people, his old besty Ben and his own son (the last remaining remnant of padme) but he's sympathetic to a droid that he left without hesitation as a kid??  I dunno...

Well, he did get him back in Episode II. ;)

There is an interesting passage in the novel where Vader reflects on the destruction of Alderaan. It almost borders on regret, until he reminds himself the planet also had traitors to the Empire living on it. Whether Alan Dean Foster invented that internal conflict, or got it from Lucas is a mystery.

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How about when Obiwan is talking to Luke he explains that Vader's fall was because he had taught him, saying something to the effect of "I thought I could teach him as well as Yoda, I was wrong."  

Really? The same Yoda that had Count Dooku as his padawan?  That Yoda?

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Obviously, the idea of Yoda's other pupils hadn't been explored during production of the OT, and it was thought that he was Obi Wan's sole teacher.

Episode II established Yoda as being an early teacher with the dead meat younglings scene. Padawans apparently move on to a single jedi master as they grow up.

Dooku went Sith much later in life than Anakin. And Qui Gon was his padawan...

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I can't help but wonder what loon installed SilverWook as a moderator at originaltrilogy.com when he's always acting as a prequel trilogy apologist!

 

;)