Kenobius: I posted this in the other topic, but I'll repost it here. All images are the GOUT, except for two Technicolor photos in the introduction, which I thought I identified in the text but I could make it more obvious since I threw together this page on the spur of the moment. It's not meant for public viewing, I made it for this thread.
The last of the ESB caps are up, there's maybe a half dozen more I will add tommorrow maybe. I spent like 3 hours taking them a day or two ago so why not post them. They are useful in demonstrating how blue the "I am your father" scene was at the very least. This will be the last of the pics I will be adding. Again, a more accurate version would have slighly less saturation and slightly less redness but you get the idea.
I am doing some more testing on this, I will have more samps later to show, but I am wondering, will these basic changes work on all 3? if I read zombie correctly, he seems to think that they all suffer about the same, so a general fix should make all look better to some point, at least a lot better than the V3 is the way it is now.
msycamore said:
and this is what I used:
########## black level/gamma, hue
Levels(10,1.08,255,0,255).Tweak(hue=-4,sat=1.3)a quite subtle approach as I think the GOUT video cannot handle too much saturation before it starts to bleed, try it out, d_j and see if you like it. I will take a look at yours and see how it compares.
I tried that and it does look better, but I wouldn't mind just a tiny bit more, like maybe an in between setting from my sample and yours, have you done anymore testing?
dark_jedi said:
I am doing some more testing on this, I will have more samps later to show, but I am wondering, will these basic changes work on all 3? if I read zombie correctly, he seems to think that they all suffer about the same, so a general fix should make all look better to some point, at least a lot better than the V3 is the way it is now.
I haven't seen Jedi, but in theory I believe this would work. Based on SW and ESB, the de-saturation and red shift seems to be pretty consistent across the board. But I'll admit I haven't done a very detailed comparison, so you might have to make the slightest of tweaks per film (i.e. it wouldn't surprise me if SW was a touch more colour-shifted because the negative was three years older).
msycamore said:
I gave my latest encode of g-force's latest script a little color boost, I think his earlier ones had it, I don't know why he decided to remove it, as I think it improves the image.
the values on g-force latest script is:
########## black level/gamma, hue
Levels(10,1.08,255,0,255).Tweak(hue=-3)and this is what I used:
########## black level/gamma, hue
Levels(10,1.08,255,0,255).Tweak(hue=-4,sat=1.3)a quite subtle approach as I think the GOUT video cannot handle too much saturation before it starts to bleed, try it out, d_j and see if you like it. I will take a look at yours and see how it compares.
Unfortunately, there isn't that much you can do with the internal tweak function, positive values adjust the hue towards red and negative towards green, that's it.
Okay, here is my question.....I'm not familiar with scripts or how to understand or implement them. I have captured just the Trailers and the S.E. doco from the U.S. SE LD set....I'd like to try applying something like this above in Avisynth. Where would I find this script and how would I use it properly?
Thanks
If it helps, the files I have are still in .AVI format. Too bad something like this couldn't be used to help make the old 5 Star set of the S.E. look nicer....it could use it.
While I occasionally use the Tweak() filter, it's only good if you need to make very general changes.
For more detailed work, I am fond of Wilbert Dijkhof's port of Donald Graft's vdub filter, "Hue": http://www.wilbertdijkhof.com/
The downside is you MUST work in RGB colorspace, your benefit is that you can adjust hue/saturation/intensity separately or together for each RYGCBM color.
You can even call multiple instances to give a separate hue shift and/or saturation for each color of 6 colors (or just leave Red out while you boost the rest).
My color correction process (in general, not just for SW):
1) Load my script without color correction into VDubMod.
2) Adjust levels and then the colors IN VDUB as outlined in Doom9's still useful Analog Capture Guide in sections 7.1.9 through 7.1.9.2. (Using multiple instances of the Hue/Sat/Intensity filter as needed.)
http://www.doom9.org/capture/postprocessing_vdub.html
-> The reason for doing this in VDub is it gives you access to a wave form monitor and vectorscope. That way you can actually see if you are pushing things too far (or not far enough).
3) Next, write down how you set your VDub filters (and in what order) and add results to the avisynth script.
Levels() is the same as VDub's Levels filter. Input levels, gamma and output levels plug right in with the same numbers.
Hue() is a port of the VDub filter, so again, the numbers are exactly the same.
This method is really useful and worth trying when you have one color that just won't behave when you are trying to adjust things.
Dr. M
dark_jedi said:
msycamore said:
and this is what I used:
########## black level/gamma, hue
Levels(10,1.08,255,0,255).Tweak(hue=-4,sat=1.3)a quite subtle approach as I think the GOUT video cannot handle too much saturation before it starts to bleed, try it out, d_j and see if you like it. I will take a look at yours and see how it compares.
I tried that and it does look better, but I wouldn't mind just a tiny bit more, like maybe an in between setting from my sample and yours, have you done anymore testing?
No I haven't, that was just a setting I landed on when I did my encode a few weeks ago. I did take a look at yours and I would recommend that you take down your saturation a few steps, even with my settings the GOUT almost starts to bleed in some places, this old video master simply cannot handle the color values of a Technicolor print.
Your sample
My encode
You could of course get better results tweaking scenes individually, IMO the Canyon scene with R2 needs a little Cyan applied to closer resemble the theatrical colortiming, and then we have the completely different colortiming on the Binary Sunset that needs some drastic individual tweaks to closer match the real thing. But that seems to be a real bitch to do in Avisynth, I experimented a little with that a while ago, but didn't get any satisfactory results. Also I think Empire needs less color saturation than SW, it starts to bleed much earlier IIRC, don't sure about Jedi but I guess it also needs lesser saturation to look any good.
I would also suggest that you hold on before making new final encodes, I'll improve and update my sub-scripts soon.
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
I have been reading this tread with interest and I must admit that I got a little scared that we may have complained injustly about the 2004 SE colour-timing but I did a little comparison and there's just no way that the 2004 SE is anywhere near the correct colour-timing but it's true that the GOUT footage could do with a little colour boost, though I'm pretty sure that the GOUT's colour-timing cannot be quite trusted either, boosted or not. I'd think that the trailer should actually be a pretty good reference.
What was done to the 2004 transfers... I cannot even call that a colortiming, they were just released. I've never seen so many technical flaws in a video transfer, I'm still chocked to this day how they succeded if it wasn't on purpose.
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
Wow, not a single response to my suggested method. If there is interested I can pick up Ep IV and post some proof of concept snaps. (I do not currently have the disc.)
Also... in the past I have used that method with stills (like the Technocolor screenshots) in VDub using Color Tools, so I actually have a hard comparison for the vectorscope and waveform monitor.
It works really well because then you aren't just trying to eyeball things, you have actual peeks and levels you are comparing.
Dr. M
Doctor M said:
Wow, not a single response to my suggested method. If there is interested I can pick up Ep IV and post some proof of concept snaps. (I do not currently have the disc.)
Also... in the past I have used that method with stills (like the Technocolor screenshots) in VDub using Color Tools, so I actually have a hard comparison for the vectorscope and waveform monitor.
It works really well because then you aren't just trying to eyeball things, you have actual peeks and levels you are comparing.
I am interested, I just don't have that filter and have never used it, also the doom9 guide is a little confusing, I have lossless avi's of all these movies, if you want to help out I can send you clips, but I am interested, with what I have done so far, nothing warrants re rendering the video, some scenes look great, some look a little better, and some look like carrot people.
I watched d_j's clip and it was a definite improvement over the GOUT for that scene, but it's hard to say whether the same settings would work for the whole movie. Also, on a different monitor it didn't come off quite as well, so this kind of thing should definitely be done with caution.
hairy_hen said:
so this kind of thing should definitely be done with caution.
My thought exactly, that is why as of right now, the V3 stands as is, I will see if Dr. M wants to help me with this first, OH and by the way, I tried msycamore's tweak and I still was not happy with that either, it was still somewhat weak in some scenes, good in others, but we still had some carrot top peeps in others to.
I thought I would post this in case it was of any use to anyone.
The following avisynth settings seem to work well for me:
Levels(15,1.08,250,0,250).ColorYUV(off_u=-3,off_v=-6).Tweak(sat=1.3)
I was using this shot:
http://savestarwars.com/images/senatorcorrected/technicolor6.jpg
from the Technicolor screening as my reference while trying to mentally compensate for the over exposure of the photo.
Ideally I would be using these settings:
Levels(16,1.08,235,0,255).ColorYUV(off_u=-3,off_v=-6).Tweak(sat=1.3)
As this matches up very closely IMO, however it causes problems with bright whites :(
In case anyone was wondering, I am a avisynth noob, this thread got me to have a go at trying to use it! ;)
Original Trilogy in Replica Technicolor Project
Star Wars PAL LaserDisc Project
Doctor M, thanks for your suggested methods on color correction, sounds great, I will definitely try it out sometime.
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
dark_jedi: Thanks for posting the comparison video. :) I think this comparison really shows how the correct Star Wars film colors are more or less there in the GOUT, they just need to be brought out. But as has been pointed out, the key is to do it while avoiding bleeding, etc.
I'm not sure what the most theatrically-correct settings are (which you rightly pointed out is the goal), it probably will need to be adjusted in some cases on a scene-by-scene basis to avoid too much red in the skin tones in certain scenes and so on. But it's clear from this comparison video, and judging based on the other sources available for comparison, that the GOUT DVD set colors are under saturated. I think the key is to be cautious, keep a close eye out for problems and not overdue the saturation. And if a good set of general correction values can be arrived at for each movie, plus special adjustment values for certain scenes when needed, then this would really improve the color accuracy of the new V3 unaltered Star Wars trilogy DVD set. :)
Hopefully the film/tech/video/restoration experts on the forum can put their heads together, after studying the images and video, and come up with the most ideal set of color correction values to restore the theatrical colors as closely as possible, without causing other problems in the video, given the sources available to us at the moment.
msycamore: I like that adjustment you made in the comparison, the skin tones are more accurate. :)
The Star Wars trilogy. There can be only one.
But do we know that the trailers are an accurate source for color?
I mean if the films can go out of whack, what's stopping the trailers from doing the same? Or from having unfinished elements that would be tweaked before the final cut?
Not that I would have any idea, I'm quite ignorant in this regard...I was just wondering.
This signature uses Markdown syntax, which makes it easy to add formatting like italics, bold, and lists:
I think the standard being used for coloring is the 70mm frames and the photos taken from the recent screening of the Technicolor print of Star Wars.
You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
I think he was reacting to my post.
And sure, the trailers might not be the most accurate source but what I was considering is that the colours in the trailer are almost the same as the GOUT although being from a different transfer done at a different time, while the 2004 colours are totally different, so it's more likely that the 2004 colours were screwed up, than that all the previous transfers were.
edit: and the 70mm frames are mostly quite faded - blue or pink shifted, so that's hardly an accurate source either:
EDIT of EDIT: Although, in the light of the most recent findings, it seems that the 70mm scans of SW and ESB might actually have quite accurate colours.
I've toyed around with the color boost on Nero 9 & have had decent results. I find by setting the color boost to 25 that it makes everything look really good. The only problem is it makes the limitations of the GOUT just a touch more obvious, but i guess that is the trade off here. At least it doesn't look as dull as it did before. Personally i like it but others may not. Just wanted to share this with anyone who may want to toy around with Nero.
Harmy said:
Although, in the light of the most recent findings, it seems that the SW and ESB colours might actually be quite accurate.
Are you referring to the 04 dvd's? if so they're not even close sorry.
I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.
vbangle said:
Harmy said:
Although, in the light of the most recent findings, it seems that the SW and ESB colours might actually be quite accurate.Are you referring to the 04 dvd's? if so they're not even close sorry.
Whaaaaat? You crazy? No, I was referring to the 70mm scans.
You may have noticed one of my previous posts:
Harmy said:
I have been reading this tread with interest and I must admit that I got a little scared that we may have complained injustly about the 2004 SE colour-timing but I did a little comparison and there's just no way that the 2004 SE is anywhere near the correct colour-timing but it's true that the GOUT footage could do with a little colour boost, though I'm pretty sure that the GOUT's colour-timing cannot be quite trusted either, boosted or not. I'd think that the trailer should actually be a pretty good reference.
vbangle said:
Harmy said:
Although, in the light of the most recent findings, it seems that the SW and ESB colours might actually be quite accurate.Are you referring to the 04 dvd's? if so they're not even close sorry.
As bad as the 2004 transfer is, I would say that the 2004 version of Star Wars has more accurate colours, but the GOUT has better brightness and contrast levels. Neither of them are accurate in terms of the overall image, but the 2004 colours in many instances are better for the simple reason that they are there. ESB is a bit iffy, since Hoth is really blue in the interiors, but then in the exteriors it's actually less blue than the GOUT's restored colours indicate if my memory of the SE is correct. I think the reason that the GOUT overall feels like a more natural viewing experience is because it is at least consistent overall, whereas the 2004 transfer has pretty good colours in one shot and then bad colours in another, and then in a lot of other shots it introduces problems that were never there in the first place, so you never have any adjustment time.
I think that ROTJ looks fantastic in the SE, aside from the previously-mentioned lightsaber shorts I can't find any real fault with it. Then again I'm sure I didn't look very hard...
A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em