Oh wait, gee, zombie's the guy behind Secret History? Damn it, can't believe I forgot that, I sure enjoyed reading that little debate he had with VINH over at the RLM thread!

Seriously, do you even realize that my FIRST POST ON THIS FORUM on that very thread was a rebuttal to everything VaderHayden had said in there months ago?? Yea, you talk your talk about the relevance of "track records", might as well walk the walk and look it up ;)

In fact, I just found this forum when stumbling onto that thread when googling for stuff about RedLetter Media, and that guy's waaay overblown disdain towards Plinkett's "misogyny" (how can anyone even like this guy's jokes, it DISGUSTS ME!!), his fanboyish, laughable defense of the TPM characters and the constant talk about "herd mentality" without any willingness to elaborate on specifics (doesn't the guy realize that there are many, many more forms of bias than "follow-the-herd"? like "strive-against-the-stream" for example?) made me so fucking angry, it was probably one of the reasons I was so eager to create an account here and post a long rebuttal months after dust had covered the crap.

So that's why everyone keeps talking about VINH all the time? I had gotten the impression that it was like some weirdo that kinda stopped posting a while ago so everyone kept wondering when he's gonna post again? Whatever.

You know, you're talking about "track records" and all - but now, you've got "aggressive form of recurring troll paranoia" towards a guy you've known for a bare month, directly preceded by a smug, berating criticism of someone else committing the same crime after having known a certain personality on here for... a bare month, on yours.

Congratulations, sir.

And you know what's the irony? Hold on... hold on... the guy you're paranoid about, and the guy you said shouldn't be paranoid about the same thing.. is... iiss... okay, I can't do it.

If we stick with 1), then hey, you know what, I couldn't give two craps about who is "sick of my attitude", I save caring about popularity crap for, you know, real life.

So next time you feel like whining and complaining about how much you dislike someone's attitude or whatever, save that for yourself, because no one CARES.

I'm condescending and derisive towards posts I find laughable and stupid, and I'm certainly showing respect for well written, thought-out contributions like zombie's lately when I see them. I also gladly partake in conversations in a light and casual tone unless it involves such giant wall-bangers that they make you wanna 

You know, if I see you post just one other "tldr" in response to something, or tolerate anyone else doing that for that matter, I defy you to stop using this account, create another one, then go to TV Frink's "sensible posting" thread and say "Hi, I'm new to this board! Wow, this is a great set of rules I hadn't considered, I'll try to consider them when posting on this thread and building up my track record, thanks!"

I know you won't do it :P

TheBoost said:

For people who are so opposed to a "PT Free" environment, let me ask: Why does a kid need to see the PT? Why, of the thousands of entertainments that xhonzi's, mine, or any kid, might enjoy and yet will never see, does the PT hold some important rank?

If someone said "I will never show my kid the animated 3 Stooges cartoons!" would there be this outcry?

Stop being disingenuous. No one on here ever said anything about having to actively push one's kids towards the PT - we're only laughing and shaking our heads at any ACTIVE EFFORT TO LIMIT THEIR EXPOSURE TO THE NEW FILMS IN ORDER TO INFLUENCE THEIR EXPERIENCE.

Like refusing to buy them a Phantom Menace DVD despite the kid asking for it. Wow... really? Talk about giant mantweens better considering not having any kids... "I don't like playing with toy cars, I think it's silly, so you're not getting this cool remote control car you've seen in the commercial - I'm only buying you the toys I like myself!"

On a broader level, we laugh at any instance of a parent taking a series of space adventure fun so seriously that they consider making any conscious effort at all to "raise their kids in a certain controlled environment" to ensure they get a specific impression from those movies, no matter in what direction it goes.

Whether it's painstakingly avoiding exposure to any piece of popculture that might reveal who Vader is so one day their kid watches it and is hopefully totally blown away by "the epic reveal", or, indeed, removing the lightsaber from a Yoda action figure, NOT because they kid's all on your sleeves and like "oh please please, i want a yoda figure without a lightsaber, please make it away!", but because you want to make sure that your kid's "image" of Yoda isn't "tainted" by the "PT's bastardization of the character from a wise mentor who was above video game stuff into a toy-wielding cartoon frog" by seeing a Yoda action figure with a lightsaber.

And no, no one's supposed to turn into giant ham and make an impression of Tommy Wiseau - the talk was about TAKING A STEP BACK, and realizing how nonsensical and ludicrous such a degree of obsession and "serious treatment" of what is basically a bunch of cool space adventure films, really is.

I honestly don't even remember if that example was hypothetical, or had actually been seriously brought up earlier in the thread, but come on, how intellectually dishonest does one have to be to purposefully misunderstand the angle of the example above?

Just for the record, I don't think that taking *some* measures in order to avoid your kid bumping into giant spoilers in general is inherently "creepy" or anything, it's just this over-obsession with the "Star Wars experience" that should be "protected" from being "tainted" by the "exposure" to the "false and horrible prequels", that I find very odd, and very inviting for ruthless mockery.

No, you're not supposed to sit down with your kid and specifically tell him that "it was his sled" until you make sure he ain't gonna forget about it anytime soon - the problem is, you have to consider the amount of effort to actively SHIELD someone from the sheer amounts of omnipresent popcultural osmosis (which, in itself, is pretty much as fun a byproduct of the original work as the shocks and angst of a first, original, unprepared viewing of said original work), and whether it's really worth going through all the hard work just so the kid one day reads Harry Potter and is shocked by Dumbledore's death.

What if you give him a great bunch of other archetypal magic stories instead, so he'll just kinda read that part and think "ah, I recognize this trope from this work and that story, nod nod kewl"? Would you really take anything away from him and his experience of a bunch of fiction?

I mean, I'm glad that I've somehow magically avoided the knowledge about the plot of "Psycho" so I could experience that shock and surprise when I watched the film (basically, the female protagonist is unexpectedly stabbed to death in a shower halfway through the film - if you haven't seen the film yet, don't read the previous sentence), but on the other hand, the experience of a good chunk of the sheer amount of "split personality psycho villains" in thrillers, crime shows and superhero schlock in subsequent pop culture, left me pretty unimpressed and slightly amused by the guy's lengthy explanation of Bate's psyche and how "his one personality doesn't know of the other" or whatever. I suppose it was designed to come off as really cool and bold at that time?

What if I had accidentally bumped into a spoiler prior to viewing it? Couldn't I have still appreciated it for what it is, or maybe be left amazed and dazzled by how disturbing and shocking the murder scene was after having seen it lampooned in endless parodies? How about if I had taken a class in film history and cinematography prior to that, wouldn't that have opened a completely new level of appreciation for me when watching it for the first time, fully knowing the spoilers and osmosis?

I know the spoiler to Citizen Kane by now (it was his sled), but hey, I'm sure the film has a lot more going for it than "the reveal" and has some significant rewatching value, so why should I be upset about it? That's life, time passes on, things get out, new perspectives are opened. What was once shocking and radical, is now common knowledge and can be looked at as a piece of history and origin of subsequent references and ideas - is that really a bad thing?

Is the experience of viewing SW for the first time after hearing so much about it, and seeing the entertaining characters, humor and small chunks of camp and cheese, in their original form, really that much worse than being blown away by the effects on a large screen in 1977? How about you shield your kids from any special effects films until they've seen Star Wars, so they're blown away by it like you were back then?

Hey while we're on this page, why not first feed them a lot of 30s' SF with shiny environments, so they appreciate the "used universe" in Star Wars?

I've never watched the Flash Gordon serials, yet I enjoyed the movie - would you say I've gone the "wrong" path, and one should first show one's kids Flash Gordon before letting them know Star Wars exists? Isn't that the way it was conceived? Isn't that background as important to the viewing experience of this otherwise very well made movie that can stand on its own feet, than the lack of the prequels back then?

Well fuck you then, I still had a great time, and I'm sure I'll have a great time when I get around to those old serials and star recognizing the "origins" of so much of the SW imagery I'm familiar with.

Like 10 years ago, I remember being a complete 24 fanboi and drooling over the shocking "twists" without really paying attention to some of the political and narrative problems in the story - but does that mean if I ever have kids I'll make conscious efforts to prevent them from learning about the spoilers from TVTropers, just so they can have the experience I had as a naive kid? Why should they have?

Hey, how about I give them something to read about narrative techniques, so they recognize those twists for the cheap and sloppy plot devices they are the first time they view it (if they do at all)? Oh boo hoo, I've ruined the epic "twists" for them - so what, they've gained so much more.

The point I'm trying to make in this somewhat lengthy post with a lot of examples is that, there are many different perspectives you can view an artwork from, you can watch it wide-eyedly for the first time and be completely immersed in the experience, or you can approach it from above, analytically comparing it to lots of things you've seen and learned before, and with the large amount of films, books, music and so on, you'll ALWAYS take SOMETHING out of it, and it'll always contain a good chunk of either enjoyment or interest.

There's absolutely no point or sense in getting all obsessed about a particular set of films, and everyone having to view it from the exact same angle as you once did, or ending up with the same opinion of it - they'll watch it, or they won't, they'll get something out of it, and their views and opinions will inevitably change over the course of time, and good is.

No need for them to agree that "the OT was better and the PT sucked", especially if they don't end up being too much into writing or cinema.

I'm aware this thread isn't about spoilers, or all those other stories and films I've mentioned, but point is, if you take that "raising kids in a PT-free environment", nothing prevents you or anyone to take it further and, indeed, extend it to forcing 50s SciFi in your kid before he ever hears of Star Wars. I mean, why not? Are you up to it, as well? Or only as far as the PT is concerned? Why? Why go through all this effort in the first place?

Just throwing some perspective out there.

TheBoost said:

Harmy said:

Xhonzi and TheBoost, I'm on your side on this issue. I think kids can't always make smart decisions for themselves and when I have kids, they're definitely gonna see the OT first and then they can watch the PT, when they're old enough to arrange it for themselves, I'm not gonna show it to them. And I would totally remove the lightsabre from the Yoda figure.

I dont even think its about "smart choices." In the myriad world of diversions my kid might watch, why intentionally expose him to what I think is crap?

When he's old enough to say "Pop, I heard some skuttlebutt that there are these other Star Wars movies" he's old enough to see them. He's also old enough to see "Darkman 3" if he can find a copy. It's not my job to show him any crap.

ps. Twobyfour

If any of your posts are addressed at me, please know that I've had you on ignore for a couple days. Perhaps I'll unignore someday if, with coaching by Frink and others, you learn how people talk at the grown-up table.

Well since you've got me on ignore and aren't reading this, I'm afraid the irony of having just been told that NO ONE HERE IS TALKING ABOUT *INTENTIONALLY* EXPOSING YOUR KIDS TO THE PT OR ANY OTHER RANDOM MOVIE and yet repeating the same dense strawman in your next post because you hadn't read the rebuttal, is lost on you - as it just so happens, obviously not on anyone else reading this :D

Yea, guess what, having a user on ignore and yet continuing posting on the topic, especially with while taking jabs at and referencing the ignored user, can actually make you look like an idiot! What did you know... :DDDD

Just for the record, I couldn't care less if you or anyone else puts me on ignore, but as soon as you start openly BRAGGING about ignoring a specific user, TOWARDS THIS USER, you instantly defeat the entire purpose behind /ignoring someone, and make a laughing stock out of yourself.

I mean, why /ignore a user if you're still going to react to his posts?? Just with the disadvantage of not knowing what you're reacting to? I mean, it just gives off the impression that you still care about the user and still want to "win", but somehow think you can accomplish it without any effort of going through their actual posts, just by insulting said user's supposed ego by telling them in the face that you don't care about his posts (why obviously to everyone, you still do). Really? You think that works?

You see, you can always put someone on ignore if you don't feel like reading their posts, and you can always revert and peek inside if you're still curious for some reason - it's just something you do for yourself and no one's gonna care. But everyone knows damn well that you're always just a click away from peeking at said user's post, or unignoring them for that matter, so any sort of childish, naive "haha I've ignored you so I have no idea what you just said, I'm afraid you just wasted your breath, hahaha!!" won't be taken seriously in the least, and will only serve to make yourself look like a complete dunce.

Especially since this ain't private messaging here and everyone else can see what you can't :D

PS: I don't see why I should listen to anything TVFrink has to tell me about "behaving like an adult" after that last post of his. Posting wide-eyed crazy accusations of trolling and sock-puppeting, and immediately treating those as factual and valid excuses to dismiss everything a user has to say, simply isn't the way to go, and the guy has lost any authority he might've still had on "proper civil forum conduct" with that last one, as far as I'm concerned.

The fact you obviously don't care about that, take any such authority away from you, as well. Here a few more guidelines for avoiding douchebaggery on an internet forum:

-if you've aborted a debate with somebody, avoid acting smug and arrogant towards said user, especially while making references to the aborted debate

-if you want to abort a debate, simply abort the debate and don't attempt to do it in a snarky and insulting manner like quoting the post just to comment it with a "tldr" or a similarly dismissive remark

-if you put users on /ignore, remember to really completely *ignore* said users in your posts, and avoid boasting about the /ignore in public

-don't voice suspicions of trolling of sock-puppeting except in the mild form of expressing your suspicion as a possible, and reasonably backed-up option; ideally, back it up with reasoning and arguments ifpossible 

You and Frink have a lot to learn about sensible forum posting, I'm afraid. Take a step back and get some perspective, then you can talk about "behaving like adults".

Harmy said:

Xhonzi and TheBoost, I'm on your side on this issue. I think kids can't always make smart decisions for themselves and when I have kids, they're definitely gonna see the OT first and then they can watch the PT, when they're old enough to arrange it for themselves, I'm not gonna show it to them. And I would totally remove the lightsabre from the Yoda figure.

The central question is, what do you mean exactly by "arranging it for themselves"? Does it mean "being able to understand dialogue"? Or "rightfully concluding that the PT is inferior garbage"?

Why can they watch the OT BEFORE they're "old enough" to "arrange it for themselves", appreciate its quality or understand its themes or what's going on?

Sure little kids can't always make "smart decisions", but does it really matter in a case where there are virtually no actual consequences to a "dumb decision"? If you wait until they can make a decision to watch a movie before showing them the OT (is there really any reason to do it prior to that?), why make any efforts to prevent them from making the "dumb decision" of watching the PT first? Is there any specific reason why they shouldn't?

What if they'll like the PT more for a while? What if they then watch the OT, and end up liking more? And then in one year, as it it is with kids, their opinions might be radically changed in EITHER direction?

I mean, hey, show your kids whatever movies in whatever order you want, it's not a big deal - just make sure you don't show them Episodes V, VI and III too early, they might not take the electroshock torture too well :D

zombie84 said:

twooffour said:

Just for the record, I don't think that taking *some* measures in order to avoid your kid bumping into giant spoilers in general is inherently "creepy" or anything, it's just this over-obsession with the "Star Wars experience" that should be "protected" from being "tainted" by the "exposure" to the "false and horrible prequels", that I find very odd, and very inviting for ruthless mockery.

 This is my POV as well. It's the sort of thing that if people not from OT.com were to come here and read would think that we are obsessive and crazy.

The Boost, no disrespect to you, but I don't believe you when you say you won't allow your kids to see "crap." This is the exact sort of thing I am talking about. You let your kids see crap every day, probably. If they watch kids films or kids TV shows, they will mostly see crap, because most of them are dumb. And that's okay. Almost all children's cartoons are dumb, and live action shows are usually unintelligent and juvenile. Other, more conservative parents, might also say they are unnecessarily violent, shorten children's attention spans, and overstimulate them with advertising and video media. If you are a good parent and pay close attention to what they watch, guess what? 90% of it is still likely to be as crappy than the prequels. There is nothing inherantly offensive in the prequels other than the fact that they disappointed us--they are fairly technically accomplished and well composed pieces of entertainment, way more than some movies your son sees. Children's programming even in the best examples is usually not very good by adult standards. That's because they aren't meant for adult standards but children's.

When I was a kid, I watched Power Rangers and Ninja Turtles. Bad acting, silly stories, dumb graphics, lots of violence, potty humour, whatever. They are in general dumb, shitty shows as far as adults are concerned. That is why they are for kids. They were dumb but also fun as hell, and formed a big part of my enjoyment of childhood, and the childhood of 100 million other kids in the early 1990s. Of course my dad would not have liked them. How many shows that kids watch are ones their parents would enjoy themselves, or even approve of in terms of dramatic quality? I can only think of two or three from my childhood. But it would have been infinitely silly and weird if he not only dissuaded me but prevented me from seeing them just because he didn't think they were well made. Every time you let your child select a show or movie they like or they would like to see, you are probably exposing them to a stupid, dumb program whose dramatic integrity you would question. Which is why it's self-serving to "hide" your kids from the "damage" of the "PT", totally unable to see the films beyond your own, adult-oriented experience from ten, twenty years earlier. Hell, the Droids cartoon show was fucking bad, bad acting, dated animation, and it doesn't really fit in with the OT storyline or world, but if your kid really, really, REALLY wanted to see Droids I am sure most people would say, "okay."

In fact, in a bizarre way, you are robbing them of the one thing everyone here wishes: a prequel trilogy that is good. Imagine having that? That's what kids have, and I am frankly jealous. I am also jealous that they have legitimately well-done SW cartoons like the Clone Wars. Well, when TPM came out I was 14 and I loved the film, thought it was awesome. I was young enough that I didn't see or care that it had elements questionable to adults. I laughed at Jar Jar a couple times. Lucasfilm sold the most toys this year out of any company without a movie--think about that. The PT-era is one designed for kids, and the one area where Lucas succeeded. When they are adults, they may realise the PT isn't as good as they thought, just like I realise now that Power Rangers is shitty, even though I watched Power Rangers ten times more than I watched Star Wars from 1993-1995.

I agree with not volunteering the PT on kids. You can show them much better things. And if they ask about it, I agree with offering the advice that they are better off without it. But if they are really into it and really show an interest, to actually go to any length to "shield" them from it, and in some cases reported here actually actively manipulate them into not seeing it despite their strong desire to--that strikes me as a super weird thing that most normal people might even say is selfish. Kids will love the prequels and the cartoons, the only real audience that will get the full enjoyment out of them is the one between the ages of five years old and fifteen. Just let them be kids and stop acting like weird adult-fanboys totally too wrapped up in an anti-PT crusade to stop and think that maybe your son or daughter might actually find enjoyment from it all.

/hats offs and lots of respects, as always!

One thing I might add to what you've already said, I've seen TPM when I was 9, and after watching the original trilogy on TV / recorded VHS, it was my first cinema screen experience and I was literally BLOWN AWAY by it. 

I've seen it like 5 times in the theatre, then couldn't wait until it gets released on VHS and then started watching it over and over at home. I was even a really obsessed fanboy of that movie, getting kinda annoyed and agry at negative reviews and scorn this movie received.

The fact that I hardly understood the dialogue helped :D I really enjoyed the "feel", the flow, the rhythm and the atmosphere, and the action. Never disliked the originals, but thought the new movie was, in ways, more "slick" and exciting to watch.

I think two parts I disliked already back then were the sappy podrace ending and the annoying double-headed commentator, and that scene where they all kneel down before Boss Nass - always made me cringe, for some reason.

So guess what? I grew out of it. Then watched me some RedLetterMedia, discussed some stuff, have found the joy in exposing flaws and plot holes in BOTH trilogies and any movie for that matter, analyzed other bits, and that all added even more additional perspective.

I can now freely waste my time on boards, discussing how both trilogies had flaws, only the PT's are infinitely worse. How the PT had some good things in it, but the OT was basically just a really good movie series overall. There's some nostalgic appreciation in some of the slicker TPM scenes and images, I guess, so that's the "taint" I got from it I suppose. Who cares? *yawn*

Know what I really like? My Dad kinda showed me the OT on TV, cos he kinda liked Empire back then, and took me to cinema in 1999, but otherwise he doesn't have any glaring interest in any of those movies or anything of that kind, and while we have a casual conversation about some movie or music or whatever, I usually don't bother him with my new plot hole discoveries during supper because I know he doesn't care that much - I mean, he likes to collect old coins and stuff, but he's not some kind of SF geek stuck in his teens, trying to goad me in some specific opinion about a bunch of action movies, and THAT'S WHAT I REALLY FIND COOL. I'm actually a bigger nerd than my Dad, who could've imagined such a thing? :DD

So parents, don't be such huge nerds, and you'll earn your kids' respect :D

Gaffer Tape said:

With the complete nosedive this conversation has taken over the past few days, it's beginning to make me glad that I don't have kids and don't intend to have any...

Welcome to the club!

Harmy said:

twooffour said:

The central question is, what do you mean exactly by "arranging it for themselves"? Does it mean "being able to understand dialogue"? Or "rightfully concluding that the PT is inferior garbage"?

 

I mean arrange it for themselves to watch it, in other words find a way to watch it, like seeing it at a friend's house or borrowing it from someone or buying the Blu-Rays for their own money or renting it or whatever. I'm not going to play it to them myself or even tell them about it but I'm not gonna stop them from watching it either, if they find some way. Just like I'm not going to show them or even tell them about other movies that I think are shit but I don't care if they find their own way to see them.

But I'm totally gonna show TMNT to my kids but I wouldn't buy and show them Power Rangers or Pokemon but I don't give a bull's crap if they see it on TV in the morning.

Well, you know what, it's just a bunch of movies, so fine, doesn't really matter. I don't have any huge issue with what you're saying because I don't think this is a matter of full life consequences or anything, but I guess I'm really just puzzled by this whole "I'm gonna show my kids TMNT but not Power Rangers" thing.

I mean sure, you don't actively show your kids movies you loathe, but it's when they CAN'T arrange it for themselves, but learn about it from somewhere and are then like "Dad, can you buy me that one please, my friends don't have it and I'm too young to rent a movie!", and you REFUSE on the sole basis of disliking said movies yourself, that the whole thing becomes officially weird.

I mean, you don't refuse to buy your kid car toys that are cheaply, unimaginatively constructed or have cheesy captions on them, either, right?

I just don't get the fuss. Don't show them EMPIRE. Don't show them how Luke gets violently tortured to near death and screams in unbearable agony for 3 minutes, not at an age where they're too young to go rent a movie. To the firy pits of hell with Jar Jar :D