Info: A PAL DVNR-free source? FOUND!

First of all thanks to the forumers’ comments (in particular to msycamore and Moth3r) that pointed me in the right direction!

After my post about the White Magic 0.2 script, msycamore noted that the PAL THX LDs has lower DVNR problems than GOUT, but the white levels are clipped, so many light details are lost forever… well, he’s right - as usual, I must admit 😉

So, during my vacation, away from my own PC, I thought about a solution… maybe a script could take back the clipped white details lost? No, they are lost forever… well, there is the JSC, right? Yes, but I’d like to have few details more… and then BLINK an idea popped into my mind like the famous lamp in the cartoons!

Because all the THX PAL LDs share the same master - yes, with low DVNR but it is still present, and now I know with clipped white levels problem - I must find another PAL LD edition pre-THX… and I got it from a long time! YES! It is the French “Pyramid” edition (see LDDB)

I discarded early this edition because it has pinkish tones, and less details… but, after reading and reading and learning and thinking, I decided to pick it up again and give it another chance when back home.

I twicked the capture settings to improve the color, and the solution works… I discovered also that the aspect ratio is 2.2:1 (less than the proper 2.35:1) but it has a little more vertical details, and the best thing is that there are 352 vertical lines of resolution, VS 324 of the THX PAL and 272 of the NTSC DC!!!  Over 80 lines more than NTSC - almost 30% more!

note the “sun” reflection on the droid, it is completely gone along with some details in the upper part of its head… also, there are few more lines of resolution in the upper and lower part of the “Pyramid” LD.

In the next post another example.

After the comments received in one of my previous posts, I decided to clear a bit my script, and I took the images posted in there and make my new verstion:

the picture frame is similar to JSC, but "pyramid" has less lines top and right, and more bottom and left; more details could be found, and albeit colors are different from JSC V8 and GOUT, it seems there is no reference image for colors, so is it quite difficult to say which has the right colors, and which has the wrong ones! (yes, my blacks are not so black, I know!)

Then I continued to "play" with this "Pyramid" edition and I achieved the following result:

From White Magic 0.3 the upscaling will be done apart and not by default... so the test outputs will be smaller and the comparisons simpler.

I'm having much fun with this project, also thanks to all the inputs I received in this forum. Thanks again, to everyone!

Waiting, as usual, your comments...

I'm no expert by any means, but there's something about the Spanish capture that I really like. Something about the look of it that "feels" much more like a DVD should, and much less like an old LD transfer.

Maybe I'd have to see the Pyramid in motion, I don't know.

looking good. Keep up the work.

Yeah, I'd say that Spanish one looks the best of all in terms of color and detail.  The slight loss of content at the top and bottom of the frame isn't worth worrying about.

Here you are the comparison:

I'm still experimentig with the script, but given the raw capture the results are good, don't you think? Which version do you prefer? (look at zoomed pictures too)

About the colors of spanish capture: you are right, they are richer than the "pyramid" LD, but are they "right"? Well, you can see also that some colors are loss due the white magic script... they could be improved if I tweak the capture color setting a little higher.

But the meaning of this thread is another: the PAL THX LDs (german, spanish, french with and without subtitles) shares the same masters, with two inherent problems, DVNR (also if not so destructive like GOUT or DC) and clipped white levels (that destroys literally white details - see the picture in the first post).

So, making a restoration based onto any PAL THX LD is wrong, as it is impossible to restore white lost details and de-DVNR the image.

Is it possible to overlay the spanish LD chroma onto the "pyramid" LD luma, but it makes any sense, as the problem of clipped white levels stay in the chroma... so if you make that way, the problem will be still present! It could be made the opposite, overlay the "pyramid" LD chroma onto the spanish LD luma; in this case, the clipped white problem is solved, but the DVNR problem will be still present...

So, at the end, the "final" solution is to use ONLY the "pyramid" LD captures to have a totally DVNR-free and color corrected (I mean without clipped whites and crushed blacks) restoration.

How about some more comparisons of other scenes with different color tones - Tantive, Death Star, Trash Compactor, Falcon, Yavin - pitting the Spanish one against your other top favorites? 

@Chewtobacca

I must admit that I like too very much the previous spanish LD capture, but as explained it will be a "wrong" restoration... but IT IS better in resolutiion and colors, as it is THX-ed - they made something good, after all ;-)

You can see here the "evolution" of the white magic script:

@Ziz

it's quite time-consuming do all those comparison... by the way,  I'm trying to do some other captures with different color settings, and the following pictures seems promising... but it is still not perfect :(

(the one without marking is the newer capture)

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

 

@Ziz

it's quite time-consuming do all those comparison... by the way,  I'm trying to do some other captures with different color settings, and the following pictures seems promising... but it is still not perfect :(

 

(the one without marking is the newer capture)

You don't have to do every source and script combination, just the top 2 or 3 contenders.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

I must admit that I like too very much the previous spanish LD capture, but as explained it will be a "wrong" restoration... but IT IS better in resolutiion and colors, as it is THX-ed - they made something good, after all ;-)

I think it's still worth preserving, even if you don't end up giving it as much attention as this Pyramid set.

Not many people have the hardware to do this kind of thing, let alone the motivation.

This "pyramid" set HAS to be preserved, as it is the most similar to the theatrical version, as the JSC - but, as it is PAL, *must* have 20% more vertical lines of resolution.

The differences from the THX PAL LDs consists in NO white clipping and absolutely NO DVNR - this last thing is really important.

I know that there are really better sources around, but if they are GOUT based they have white clipping and heavy DVNR for sure, and maybe blacks crushed; the SE has for sure blacks crushed, and it's quite difficult to "cut" all the added CGI to restore original scenes...

I have thought this: take four OUT versions - GOUT PAL DVD in english, THX PAL LD in german, "pyramid" LD in french and THX VHS in italian (just because I want to extract the HIFI audio and need the fourth version) and combine them in a 2x2 grid; then make a side-by-side comparison and choose the better scene either from the THX PAL LD and the "pyramid" LD.

I mean: if in the THX PAL LD the DVNR or the white clipping is evident, choose the "pyramid" scene, else take the THX PAL LD scene - obviously, no GOUT for the reasons explained before.

...if only someone out there will help me to check the scenes... ;-)

Grisan,

is the color of your silver screen pink-shifted? Is the aspect ratio about 2.2:1? Is the picture noisy?

If so, I'm quite sure that the french "pyramid" and german silver screen collection share the same master...

But it will be better to have the captures from both, to average noise and drop-outs... would you borrow me your copies, or exchange them with other laserdiscs? ;-)

The next step is coming: stay tuned!

IMPORTANT NOTICE:

as I'm going to compare the "pyramid" LD with the GOUT DVD, I discovered that also this "pyramid" edition suffers the "incredible shrinking ratio" problem... sigh! :(

So, at this point, it seems thare are at least three major masters around used for OT laserdiscs... I list some of there I'm aware of, but surely there are others:

1. DVNR-free + no white clipping - NTSC Japan Special Collection, NTSC US Special Widescreen Edition, PAL french "pyramid" boxset, PAL german Silver Screen edition (some with the "incredible shrinking ratio" problem)
2. Light DVNR + white clipping - PAL french THX subtitles, PAL french THX dubbed, PAL german THX, PAL spanish THX
3. Strong DVNR + white clipping - NTSC US and Japan Definitive Collection, NTSC US "faces", NTSC Japan Collector's Set - also GOUT PAL and NTSC DVDs of course...

Anyway, when the comparison will be ready I'll post more info here.

The comparison is ready - visit this thread.