A big part of the problem, I imagine, is behind the scenes.

I love Babylon 5 but there is a lot of reverential nonsense written about that show.

One chestnut is that it's a fully planned novel for television which despite a few necessary tweaks (beyond the writer's and production staff's control) told the whole story.

Clearly that's not true.

Even if you take into account that much of the meat of the intended series 5 was bumped into series 4 because of a genuine belief that the show was being canceled, leaving series 5 with a big hole to fill there is still a lot of dragged out filler and huge chunks of the story left not touched upon.

Indeed series 5 introduces a huge chunk of this hanging story ledge so what gives?

When series 5 was cleared TNT wanted to spin off the show with Crusade and funded series 5 and the television movies to lead into this spin off show.

So rather than getting a Series 5 that covered telegraphed storylines like "The Telepath War" and the "Drakh War" beyond just a few hints here and there we got those storylines tickled forward rather than a march towards the conclusion because the spin off would need to pick up these threads.

The television movies too pointed at material and general themes that the next show could carry on with.

When Crusade was shafted by TNT (much like the shafting Caprica got from SyFy) those storylines died with the show.

You could read the novels etc but that's not the same as watching the show just as watching Anakin in The Clone Wars doesn't really make up for the lack of characterisation in the PT.

If you look at series 5 of NuBSG it matches series 5 of B5 in many ways.

The long drawn out cult of Baltar thread is practically the long drawn out cult of Byron thread revisited.

It's slightly less annoying but it's still frustrating that at that point in the story television hours are being spent bouncing back there when all it seems to do is underline what we already suspected, that the 'head beings' are real and not some sort of Cylon deception or a human delusion.

It's a plot tickle instead of a plot stride, just as Byron's cult might have eventually led to something in Crusade but doesn't do much on it's own, Baltar's cult might have led back to something in Caprica but on it's own it doesn't do much.

The motivation and backstory of the 'angels' and the 'God thing' were tickled along in a similar fashion and from what we saw of Caprica it was clearly meant to be a major theme for that show to develop but as that show withered on the vine it never manifested and I doubt if Blood And Chrome will even go there as it's now seen to be a toxic concept.

If I had my own way (which I never do) these giant sagas would be written, cast, and filmed, from beginning to end (at least to a workprint stage) before the first episode is shown.

That would allow a bit of wiggle room to tweak the show as it's being broadcast and allow for the series to move from station to station without the fear of some bean counter pulling the plug before the journey ends.

It would also discourage writers from drifting aimlessly off course or stock pilling plot points for spin off shows that come to nothing.

That might make it much more difficult to get a television show commissioned but if a writer can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen and write a series of novels.

As for the three Zoe's (if you watched Caprica all the way through you'd have had the whole set).

Zoe A, is a human being and looked at from the outside human beings can often look like utterly unlikable gits (indeed almost every character in Caprica is like this so why focus on Zoe alone?), when you have a personal relationship with someone you get to see the gittish behaviour in a wider context (sometimes it's just the rough you take with smooth, sometimes it's the nearest you get to smooth on a huge iceberg of more rough hiding under the surface).

Zoe B is a related but different character.

She has her progenitor's memories and some character traits but she is also a unique being trying to balance her inherited self from her divergent AI self.

Angel Zoe seems to also be a related character but from the little we saw of her she also seemed to have an identity unique to the other two with a very different agenda.

If the show was allowed to progress without interference this could have been a fascinating way of exploring the hanging stories of NuBSG (it might have become tedious beyond endurance) but because this sort of thing wasn't introduced into the parent show and the spin off was strangled at birth we will never know and that is frustration, the worst of all emotional states and something we Science Fiction/Fantasy devotees have had more than enough of already.

I've never seen Caprica, so I skipped over those parts, but here's some thoughts on NuBSG...

I don't think the Galactica God has as much of an influence as you think, twist.  You compare it to Gandalf in Lord of the Rings, but there is a similar argument you could present for that.  Gandalf dies after fighting the balrog, and then is sent back to Middle Earth as Gandalf the White to "finish his task".  No other explanation other than "god did it". 

Galactica God interfered by sending angels to help the humans and cylons complete their cycle and begin a new life.  The only thinks we can say "god did it" about in the show is head six and Starbuck (the angels), while everything else is explainable.  The head six and head Gaius had motivation to help each other out because they were speaking to themselves in a way.  They knew the path they were headed for because they already experienced it and were sent back to guide themselves.   Sort of like they're from the future, only their from a place where time doesn't exist in the traditional, linear sense.  That's how I see it anyway, not too confusing once you wrap your head around it.

Also, I don't think anyone meant us to think the almighty Galactica God was simply playing a game with everyone's lives, or "waiting around" for something interesting to happen.  I think it's more of keeping a balance between divine intervention and free will.

Lost was a very similar show to BSG, and in the end the "god did it" explanation was used even more in Lost than BSG.

So, other than head six & baltar and Starbucks disappearance (and them most likely being angels), what don't you like about NuBSG, twist?  What else bothers you about the whole GOD thing?

Also, about the hybrid blood as a cure all thing, I have to say I never really thought about it much before now.  I kind of forgot about that part of the story as it was happening.  My guess would be they would have done more with it if it would have been interesting to do so.  But if in following a line of events one or two plot points gets dropped along the way, I have to say I don't really mind.  Like you said yourself, they thought about it, but it came out to technobabbley, so they dropped it. 

I watch science fiction to be entertained, not to break down the technical aspects.

CP3S said:

Twist said:

Showing mundane stuff that doesn't move things along at all. Adama crying many times, looking at paint dry, painting a single color on a wall. Well yeah that's realistic but, it's not the type of show I was watching prior.

So very agreed. My feelings about the show toward the end entirely.

When I started the show I couldn't stop because it sucked me in and I was really enjoying it. Through some of season three and all of four I was often just watching because I felt an obligation to myself to see it through to the end. What engaged me so much in the first two seasons was long gone, and I now felt pretty much everything Twist just described.

I definitely agree that there were some slow parts.  The first two seasons were phenomenal, but the middle of season three was slow going.  However, I have to say the first half of season four is probably the best BSG had to offer other than the first 12 episodes of season two.  "Guess What's Coming to Dinner?" is awesome, it was all so fast-paced. 

I wasn't as big of a fan of the second half of season four and all the civil war type stuff, but a lot of that is to blame on the writers strike that was going on at the time.  They weren't sure if they were coming back after the mid-season break, and I feel like it really screwed up a lot of their long term storytelling goals.

Although I don't believe a God exists, I'm fascinated by storys based on religion and/or god. Like the movie "The Prophecy", or "Supernatural" or the book "The Jesus-Video" by Andreas Eschbach (I don't know if it's available in other languages than German).
But the God-Theme in BSG was never such a great aspect to me.
Since the classic BSG was an action show, while the storys and characters stays hollow all the time, the new BSG is a character-show.

I've never seen a sci-fi-show before, that got so deeply into the characters as BSG. As a fan of Star Trek, my favorite show was DS9, since they tried to give the characters more depth. But they failed, because of the episodic storylines. In Season 4 there was this episode "Hard Time", where O'Brien is imprisoned for 20 years in a virtual prison. In real time he stayed there only a few hours. At the end of the episode he tried to commit suicide, because of his (not real) memories. But in the next episode O'Brien was all love-peace-and-happines again. That's what bothered me.

Not so BSG. You see the rise and fall of characters and always the question comes to mind 'what would you do?' (regarding Admiral Cain, f.e.)

The first two seasons of BSG were awesome. Great storys, action and pacing were good, and ending season 2 with a "One-year-later" was fascinating. Then came season 3. The "getting-off-new-caprica" storyline was okay, but then the season began to suck. Stuffed with filler episodes like "Hero" it got more and more boring. But suddenly the last 15 minutes of the last episode of season 3 made it worth to watch it all. 15 minutes that saved a whole season.

Then came "Razor". A very good story, a mysterious new character, and an old hybrid prophesying all of season 4 (that's why you should watch "Razor" after season 3 and not in the middle of season 2), in a very cryptic way, of course. And "classic" cylons in action, yay.

Season 4 was awesome again. The series ended with a solution I never expected. Okay, maybe it was God who led Kara's hands but it could've been a coincidence, or whatever.

To sum it up (I said it before and I'll say it again): in my eyes BSG is the BEST. SCIFI. SHOW. ON. TV. EVER.

TK-949 said:

The first two seasons of BSG were awesome. Great storys, action and pacing were good, and ending season 2 with a "One-year-later" was fascinating. Then came season 3. The "getting-off-new-caprica" storyline was okay, but then the season began to suck. Stuffed with filler episodes like "Hero" it got more and more boring. But suddenly the last 15 minutes of the last episode of season 3 made it worth to watch it all. 15 minutes that saved a whole season.

Perfectly said.  The first four episodes of season 3 were great, but for much of the season not much was happening, and then the end was killer--one of my favorite episodes.

Then came "Razor". A very good story, a mysterious new character, and an old hybrid prophesying all of season 4 (that's why you should watch "Razor" after season 3 and not in the middle of season 2), in a very cryptic way, of course. And "classic" cylons in action, yay.

Season 4 was awesome again. The series ended with a solution I never expected. Okay, maybe it was God who led Kara's hands but it could've been a coincidence, or whatever.

I wasn't a big fan of Razor, but that may be because I watched it in the middle of season two, which I now realize I shouldn't have done.

But I totally agree about season 4, it was awesome (minus the mutiny storyline which I could have done without).  But I don't really think God was leading Kara's hands too much.  After all, she couldn't explain what had happened to her, so I assumed she was completely in control of herself, and that she was just given a second chance to help her friends find what they were looking for.  I think all the decisions she made and all of her actions were totally of her own doing.  Anything else would go against what a lot of the show was about: decisions.  The choices you make one way or another. 

That's why I don't think liking the show (or the end of the show, at least) hinges on whether or not you could stomach the "god" aspect.  It was a really small part of the show - easily overlooked.  Moore didn't shove the idea down our throats, but presented it in a way that let the viewer make of it what they would.

To sum it up (I said it before and I'll say it again): in my eyes BSG is the BEST. SCIFI. SHOW. ON. TV. EVER.

THIS.

Another thing I really love about this show is the music. Bear McCreary is one of the most creative newcomers in composing soundtracks. I met him in person 2 years ago in Hagen, where he attended the premiere of a modern ballet-show which contained his music (played by a live orchestra, a very cool event). He's younger than me (than most of us here, I'm jealous ;) ). But he's a very nice guy, and since he's blogging about his compositions and asking fans for their opinions, he's giving you the feeling of being involved.

But the BSG music is stunning. Richard Gibbs wrote it for the Pilot (with McCreary assisting him). Quiet and yet very percussion heavy. The music evolves over the four seasons and gets more and more complex. But the really fascinating part is that through season 3 the music becomes a character of its own. It becomes part of the storyline in a way I've never seen before.

The soundtrack albums are all worth buying, also some other stuff he wrote like "Terminator: SCC" and "Human Target".

If you have the chance to listen to the music don't miss the following tracks:

Pilot:
"By Your Command"

Season 1:
"The Olympic Carrier"
"Kobol's Last Gleaming"

Season 2:
"Colonial Anthem"
"Baltar's Dream"
"Pegasus"
"Lords Of Kobol"
"Roslin And Adama"
"Gina Escapes"
"Prelude To War"
"Worthy Of Survival"
"Black Market"

Season 3:
"A Distant Sadness"
"Precipice"
"Kat's Sacrifice"
"Heeding The Call"
"All Along The Watchtower"

Season 4
The whole godsdamn thing...

I agree about the music, it's so great.  But one complaint that I have and REALLY bothers me to this day is the main theme, and the fact that they changed it after the first season.

Season 1 Main Theme

Season 2-4 Main Theme

It was so much better before, so epic!  WHY did they change it?!?!?!!???

:C

If you watched the series anywhere else they didn't change it as your season 2-4 theme was our theme from the beginning.

I prefer it BTW.

We have to call Marathon bars Snickers, I think we got the raw end of the deal.

Bingowings said:

I prefer it BTW.

Which, the U.S. theme, or yours?

RedFive said:

Bingowings said:

I prefer it BTW.

Which, the U.S. theme, or yours?

In the terms you use, mine.

I also prefer the UK Title.

After watching the third season for the third time (once, when it was released, once to dub it with the german language track and once again in german with my girlfriend) I don't think it sucks at all. There are really good episodes there. Maybe because I watched it 3 or 4 episodes a day and not 1 episode a week.

And RedFive, did you ever watch the extended Version of "Razor". You should, since it has a lot more to offer. Especially the extended hybrid monologue and the fight in the first cylon war.

And for the whole series: It's more mystery than sci-fi. The "God" aspect is there from the miniseries and a major part of the plot of the entire series. So if there's some critic who says, that you can't do an series ending with "God dit it all", said critic hasn't got the point of the whole series. It's build on that topic.

After what SyFy did with Caprica I was expecting this sort of dick move.

What is that station for again?

Re: my comments about Babylon 5's hanging plot strands, here's an interesting bit of complementary reading (which is just as depressing).

Bingowings said:

What is that station for again?

I usually stop watching BSG at the mid-point of Season Four.  I love that shot of everyone down on a desolated Earth (Thirteenth Colony).  It was a dark, dreary way to end the series.